Don’t Judge A Blog By Its Logo
This is effectively the third part of a series on ‘What is PBH’. See Alec and Kit’s entries for more discussion on the topic.
Recently, we at PBH have come under fire for our name and our logo. After Liberally Mirth cross-posted my post from Peace Tree (it was here, but has since been removed), the owner of the site sent me an email regarding her hesitations with our site, particularly our title and logo:
Alec,
I want to feature your blog at LM, but its title and, especially, its logo of a woman being spanked make me hesitant. I’m sure I simply don’t understand their meaning. When you have time and nothing better to do, could you tell me your thinking about them?
Thanks,
mirth/Elizabeth
Which was interesting because Kit and I had discussed clarifying what PBH was about as we anticipated as we became more popular, people would be more speculative about the site. We both fired off essays regarding our positions and why PBH was not intended to offend. I sent the following back to Mirth:
Elizabeth:
No problem, you actually sparked something that needed to happen for a long time — which is an explanation of our site, its name, and its purpose. There are two extensive entries dealing with both of your questions:
http://www.prosebeforehos.com/alec/04/30/what-is-pbh-part-1/
http://www.prosebeforehos.com/kit/04/30/what-is-pbh-part-2/Thanks again, and if you have any other questions, don’t hesitate to contact me.
Sincerely,
Alec
This was followed by a quick response from Mirth:
Alec,
Thanks for the reply. I read your posts. Ok here it is, straightup. I have a couple of friends who are into the deconstructionist thing. They express, much as you, wanting to avoid a bleak future as if they have no choice in how they will live their lives! I find their talk sorta interesting but obscure and a little fuzzy and, thus, I don’t get much from it.
In the case of your blog logo, why would would choose to go back to a 50s stereotypical and degrading image? You seem to reject one set of standards, yet choose another even more oppressive.I’m not going to link pbh because 1) I find a woman being spanked by a man offensive and 2) my readers will find a woman being spanked by a man offensive. I don’t mean to be insulting, but it’s just a little too frat boy for us.
But, judging by the one poem of yours that I have read, I dig your work and I’ll be looking for more at The Peace Tree.
Best,
m/E
To which I replied:
Elizabeth:
Best addressed by a paragraph in Kit’s post — “The sharpest tool for rendering the sacred ordinary is humor and wit. The image of the superhero spanking the woman attacks both traditional and Modern sensibilities. It mocks the idea that a woman could be treated as a petulant child while also mocking the idea that these images are verboten. While the traditional interpretation may be that the superhero represents all men and the woman all women, in a postmodern world couldn’t the superhero represent the abstract ideal of the written word, and the woman represent all mankind?”
Thanks again for the link and I enjoy your blog as well! Keep up the good work.
Always,
Alec
Followed by the last email communication.
Alec,
Here’s what a nearly 20-year age difference will do to opinions:
I don’t think your logo mocks anything. I think it perpetuates stereotype and oppression and isn’t females alone that are degraded by it. And I’m guessing Kit is not female, so add in gender to the difference thing. I also think the logo cheapens what I’ve seen of your work. But that just me, being all blunt & stuff.
m/E
Fair enough — I wouldn’t agree with any of her assertions, but it was a normal, clean conversation. Frankly, her point of ‘I don’t think your logo mocks anything’ is wrong — we created this image and this blog, and we know the reasoning behind it. We didn’t come up with convenient excuses because we are secretly misogynists in waiting, we sincerely created a logo with a superhero hitting a woman in the butt with a newspaper because it is nonsensical, non-traditional, and funny (because superheros don’t exist, and if they did, I presume they wouldn’t spend time hitting woman in the rear with newspapers). Though the irony of bringing up the sex of the author as a means to attack the idea as sexist was apparently lost on her, I would like to point out that two of our five regular contributors are females, and I don’t think any of our viewership had yet to explicitly find issue with our content.
Then I decided to comment on one of her blog posts dealing with a woman who thought she got sick from electrical appliances — nothing too controversial, just a typical comment spewing from me — “Mirth: Nice find. I need that headgear so I can finally get a full nights sleep without having to worry Dick Cheney will swoop through my window and suck my blood”, which included my avatar (the same image as the logo) and a link to my WordPress blog. And that’s when the floodgates opened (for a PDF with the whole transcripts of the thread, click here:
She wants a public debate on my ideas about PBH. Not a problem, someone already elicits support for our “everything goes” mentality. This is when the debate turns into a disagreement before I’m even given a chance to respond with Mirth beating the drum for our supposed misogyny (and by the way, before we even could get to this point, there were ten comments by the blog frequenters relating to hitting each other in the ass and who would like what):
And here you have it, we are of a 1950’s attitude and secret Republicans, and if you don’t see what’s terribly wrong with PBH, you probably are too. And, I’m not comfortable with women having power, or comfortable with women in general. All of this easily assumed by looking at the logo for our website. This is when I enter with a nice bit of sarcasm that pervades on PBH in attempt to get others to understand our brand of humor:
So, in a free and permissive society, we are free and permissive to do what we want as long as my expression doesn’t step on your sensibilities. Yet, everyone’s evidence of our supposed ignorance and offense is my avatar and our website name. Not once do they find any posts on our site that propose or encourage violence against women (or anyone else for that matter as we are all pacifists).
And now, we are down the full path of enlightened discourse. You see, it’s only taken a little bit of bullying and eye-opening to jump to the conclusion that YES, PBH is in fact secret women-hating Republicans who harken back to their grandfathers days when a woman would be perpetually making dinner. And from the preacher comes the final gospel:
So in one thread, we went to a reasoned discussion on the merits of having a SUPERHERO hit a woman in 50’s get up as a logo to discussions about how we were frat boys making light of child abuse and posting jokes about 9/11. In fact, the only post that came after mine was from Kit, who wrote an excellent rebuttal to the arguments presented by the LM crew:
The fact of the matter is that it is a superhero hitting a woman in the behind with a newspaper. Let me repeat that just because I think that is hilarious, maybe if you say it out loud you will hear it. It’s a superhero hitting a woman in the behind with a newspaper.
Why do you relate to the woman being hit with the newspaper? Has a superhero hit you in the behind with a newspaper? Because if I ever saw that, that would be hilarious to me. Also hilarious to me:
* Men being hit in the behind by superheros
* Dogs being hit in the behind by superheros
* Inanimate objects being hit in the behind by superherosBasically any cartoon which involves a superhero paddling something with a newspaper, I would find funny. Honestly, a superhero hitting something with a newspaper?
Now to the point. Obviously domestic abuse is not funny. No one should live in fear of someone who supposedly loves them. That’s bullshit.
But really, if my dad were wearing a superhero costume and paddling my mom (dressed in a 1950s dress) with a newspaper, domestic abuse is not the first thing that would come to mind.
This comic is pure patriarchal kitsch, just like Soviet kitsch. Unless they hate Jews, nobody really wants to live under Stalin. But Soviet stuff is just a funny reminder of a bygone era of false ideals and failed dreams.
The white picket fence. The home cooked meal waiting for the man returning home from a long day at the office. The Ozzie and Harriet spotlessly clean and modern home.
“What did you do at work today honey?”
“I oppressed you and millions of other women dear, simply by conforming to our traditional way of life.”
“That’s nice, the kids are playing baseball down at the field.”
This is as false of a past as the glorious triumph of global Communism. People don’t really want that shit. People want true equality, the ability to make a life of their own. But what does that mean?
Where is the women’s right movement today? Burning bras? Struggling to escape the kitchen? The truth is that the clear cut discrimination of the past is over with. No one should disrespect a woman for any choice she makes. And for the most part, no one will.
As I mentioned in my post on PBH, in order to properly understand the present and coming future, we must reexamine the baggage of the past. Why does the superhero represent all men? Why does the woman represent all women?
So the question Prose Before Hos asks is, are you a prose writin pro? or a ho-baggin ho? I identify with prose, and I hope you do to. The answer has nothing to do with sex.
A wise man once said do not trust anyone over 30, and with reason. But a wiser man would say, don’t trust anyone to laugh at something when they are consumed with taking out their personal problems on others, because a superhero hitting a woman with a newspaper is fucking funny.
[…] good news: we got in our first blog scuffle with a bunch of uptight and unruly Democrats (because supporting Dennis Kucinich makes sense, […]
All things considered, your divulging private correspondence is no surprise.
After dealing with your childish and offensive behavior at my blog, I looked at this one more carefully and I judge it to be only marginally above an out-and-out hate site, one administered by pretentious frat boys who vastly overestimate their intellectual abilities.
I don’t allow hate speech, in any form, on my personal blog.
You are banned there.
End o’ story.
There is reasoned discussion and there is acting like disrespectful, spoiled punks. You are doing the latter.
I’m not sticking around to debate you. I’ve said my peace.
Man, people are strange. I hope you all have good lives filled with love and happiness, and will perhaps learn to understand viewpoints that are different than your own. There is nothing more to say.
Interesting a couple of frat boys act like the idiot in chief TWICE,
in their total disregard for their cluelessness,
then their childish rants when they get called on it,
Grow up widdle boys…..
BTW when I see you LOGO, I don’t see a super hero son, because I don’t live in some sort of illusionary fantasy land.
I see a Man dress up in tights attacking another human who happens to be female, spin it any way you want, BUT that is the basic message of the image.
I see people who demand their version of reality is the only one that has merit in operation, sort of like the clueless idiots in Washington who have done so much damage to this country another clueless frat boy if you will.
Why do you guys have such venom for males in fraternities? You seem perfectly ok with being prejudiced against an entire group of people who you have never met. I was never in a fraternity, nor did I ever particularly want to be, but this whole ‘fratboy’ slinging just seems like a racist calling me ‘darkie.’ I don’t mind being incorrectly associated with a group of people, but I find the pejorative use of the term revealing.
I see people who demand their version of reality is the only one that has merit in operation, sort of like the clueless idiots in Washington who have done so much damage to this country another clueless frat boy if you will.
That’s interesting to me because I feel like I at least have been open to your interpretations of the logo. Of course I can see the potential misogyny in it. I am just asking you to consider my viewpoint. In this sense, I feel like it is you who are trying to force your reality upon me. Can you consider for a moment that perhaps the intent behind the image and indeed the website itself is not misogynistic?
Frat boy is a mentality which you have shown both in what you POST and the e mails you don’t show…….
It is a large part of why the idiot in Washington can’t admit he is wrong……
Yes I spent enough years in college to recognize it even if you never joined you exhibit it.
the LOGO is patently offensive to any body who has been abused, especially women who have been abused by men, if you can’t get that through you self centered selfish childish persona I can not help you any more.
Intent is not the question, IT is how something that offensive is received just like the idiocy of Rush or Imus’s foot in mouth comments over the years….
you may claim you have NO Intent to offend but with your juvenile image of patent violence to a woman YOU do offend so you FAIL in your intent.
So if you do NOT want to offend a significant portion of the people of this planet who has had to suffer what the image shows or worse Think about how important you demands to be right even when your argument is so thin, over what it seems quite a fewe people come away from even after hearing your sophomoric justifications.
BTW my frat boy comment is NOT intended to offend, sory if it does,
It is JUST how the main center of thinking I see here is found on most campuses I have attended.
It is an observation of what I see here compared to real life on campus.
You might not be a frat boy in real life, but you do a good job playing one on the tubes(if you will)
Kit, your immaturity is stunning, as is your lack of ethics in posting without my permission my private mails and my actual name. I know that people reach their 20s poorly equipped to deal with an grownup world. I just don’t see them that often.
You’ve had your fun with a tantrum. It brought you the adult attention that you obviously crave. You want to be recognized as a Big Boy. I get that.
But, now you’re just boring.
Bye
I find it interesting all the e mails were to ALEX, but he lacks the testicular fortitude to be a real grown up and HONOR somebodies privacy so has “kit” become his stand in (some might even say sock puppet in the flesh) to defend his dishonorable behavior….
But then again the reichwing of this country has never had any HONOR at all.
You might take another slight at being pegged as reichwingers, but when you act reichwing, you become reichwing.
If people are offended by it, it is not really my problem. Basically everything I do could be considered offense by someone, be it fundamentalist Christian or politically correct uber-liberal. Honestly, being offended is somewhat a choice. If someone here has been hit by a newspaper wielding man in tights while wearing a 1950s dress, I will take the logo down.
Otherwise, consider that though you might find it offensive, the meanings that we ascribe and hope to impart are not misogynistic. Read between the lines to what is really being said. I know peoples gut reaction when they symbols traditionally associated with oppression. But in a world with no oppression, these symbols would have no power, so I ask you to reconsider the power that you ascribe them.
I’d say have a nice LIFE, but you will have to grow up first.
Ah clif, you’ve just invoked Godwin’s Law. I’m afraid I refuse to discuss anything after a conversation has reached that point.
You have refused to discus anything from the start, YOU defined something claimed you had NO intention to offend, and held tight to what you said like most spoiled children do when they get called on their immaturity.
Kit, your immaturity is stunning, as is your lack of ethics in posting without my permission my private mails and my actual name.
Mirth, I didn’t post your emails or name, that was alec. Even so, I don’t see the ethical problem with posting your first name.
Really your rudeness is incredible. You have called me names repeatedly without any sort of provocation. Instead of debating ideas, you attack me personally. I really don’t understand, but like I said before I wish you the best.
The reichwing thing is NOT about Nazi Germany except for the similarity of certain groups of people to do the same thing when they are faced with inconvenient facts like you have done, and those people in the re-pubie party do all the time.
If you do not like how you look from the outside change your behavior, because that is all people SEE,
intent is entirely hidden, and being dishonorable about it just reinforces the juvenile aspect of your actions, you might think about respecting something once in a while if you WANT respect
Kit you still DON”T get it do you,
You do not defend something which on its face is indefensible unless you want to be associated with people who act in similar manner.
posting anything of a personal nature with OUT permission is wrong no matter how much a couple of juvenile college educated spoiled people think other wise, and your defense of it is just as wrong as the act itself.
Just like defending a war then asking others to fight it is wrong also.
Clif: I never asked for your respect. You came to my website attacking me for finding an image funny. If you judge people a certain way based on a few superficial things, then I posit you may be missing out on a great variety of experiences and viewpoints. My mother respects me, and that’s the only person whose respect I need.
The allusion to Nazi Germany in “reichwing” is evident, you are calling me a Nazi or a fellow traveler. I don’t appreciate this for reasons I hope are obvious. I don’t think I have called you any names at all, I don’t know you well enough. I am sure you are a nice person, and I wish you well. But I will leave it at that, I already broke my rule about not continuing after Godwin’s.
Well son if you don’t LIKE my intent at least you LEARNED something out of this.
if it didn’t feel good think about how you might make others feel also.
BTW never defend the exposing private personal information ever because it is always wrong no matter how justifiable it seems at the time.
Because what GOES around can come around ask the coulterguist about that one.
BTW tell alex nice editing;
he conveniently left a couple of comment out of his dishonest rant about this.
clif on May 1st, 2007 said:
The logo is patently offensive to me for two reasons.
First I grew up in a house where my father physically abused my mother and the rest of us. That is wrong and spinning it with stupid tongue in cheek comments is just covering the pile of shit with whipped cream and calling it a cake.
The second reason is more personal to me,
I have two daughters and think people who MOCK violence against women are a danger to both of them, and ignorant cretins no matter how sophisticated they think they are.
clif on May 1st, 2007 said:
Mirth having watched my mother go through this type of repression while I grew up. I definately do NOT want my daughters, (or anybody else’s daughters for that matter) to have to go through what I witnessed as a child.
It is simple either we try to create a better world, each of us individually keeping up the standards we want people we know and love to have to deal with, or we’re just selfish self centered cretins who eventually will pull the equivalent of the anti-war baby boomer crowd who got old greedy and selfish.
clif on May 1st, 2007 said:
Rocky having been beaten by my father and watching Him physically abuse my mother I can understand why this actually hurts mirth,
if you didn’t live through that nothing can explain just how horrific it is and how it scars you for life, those who have lived through it never need to explain the painful memories and tender scars we carry.
see I only posted what I said NOT what others said from their blog with out their permission, but children will be children no matter what their physicla age.
What is this nonsense? I didn’t edit anything — both of your comments are up there, look at #42. Being a victim of something doesn’t give you ownership over an issue, nor does it give you ownership over others freedom of expression.
By the way, Kit is a cofounder and serves as my intellectual body guard. So treat him as you would treat me (poorly).
By the way, the point is that no one on this site has ever advocated hitting a woman, or hitting anybody for that matter. It’s a JOKE.
What Alec demonstrates with this post and his careful editing of Clif’s comments from last night which he has shown above is pure intellectual dishonesty. He took our thread completely out of context in order to support his own arguments. That is right wing tactics pure and simple. Rove has taught you well whether you wanted to learn it or not.
You say you don’t need our respect and that’s a good thing because you certainly don’t have it and don’t deserve it. Posting emails without permission is unethical and has no defence.
Whether you understand why some of us would take offence to your logo is immaterial. People do. Welcome to the real world.
mirth: I used your first name, and that was it. Are you that concerned? And our conversations were never private either, but I’ll happily delete them if you apologize to me for being rude.
Really? All the worthwhile/relevant portions of the thread are on this page, and none are taken out of context. Plus there’s a PDF file linked that contains the whole thread. I don’t know how I could have taken these out of context.
By the way, sorry you spent your childhood getting beat up by your dad, but guess what? I’m not him, and neither is the superhero in our logo. Don’t drag me into your hang ups.
Alec, I am picturing your foot stomping.
“You are mean to me! Say you’re sorry!”
Keep my name, you prissy little fucker.
Allow me to suggest:
Thanks, have a good evening!
alex your joke about domestic violence reminds me of the jokes about lynching from the 60’s son, your an immature widdle brat. nothing more.
And not very humorous either.
Hope you don’t intend to make a living trying to be funny cause you will starve unless you got a poppy to grease the skids for you like the idiot in chief had his do it for him.
Well you morons are special tubes Olympics Champs widdle kit boy.
Trying to have a rational debate on the internet? That’s a paddling.
I didn’t grow up in the 60’s. And apparently you didn’t grow past them.
alec says:
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:48 pm
I didn’t grow up…
the rest is just babble……
Alec, your ‘deconstructionist’ babble is simply a cover for hate speech. It allows you to inflict harm with impunity under a guise, a false one, of intellect. It’s a tactic most hatemongers use.
Which is actually too bad, since you have some talent as a writer. Remember how this all started? My high-readership blog offering wider exposure to your writing. Unfortunately, people who stay locked in immaturity, unable to release childhood, mired in self-indulgence, become their own worst enemies.
So, demonstrating your paucity of critical thinking skills and absence of empathy as well as your lack of ethics, today you got some reader hits and a thread with more than 1 comment. Enjoy it.
Wow. I mean wow. I just stumbled onto this site!
Kit and Alec, way to go. Solid arguments and rationale. It’s a shame that anytime one does not bow to the most sensitive in the room they’re attacked as being either Republican, Frattish, or Nazis.
I’m totally going to start checking out your site on a regular basis and passing it on to my friends. So glad there are still people out there that can keep their cool in the face of such nasty and degrading comments.
Keep up the good work!
I apologize for my last comment, it was unnecessary. This will be my last comment: the logo and the site are not meant to offend but enlighten, sorry if they do.
This link back “[…] good news: we got in our first blog scuffle with a bunch of uptight and unruly Democrats (because supporting Dennis Kucinich makes sense,” …
… show you’re enjoying the attention a little too much. Not that it matters either way, of course, but I was on your side pretty much until then, though I don’t like the logo either. Hint, if you have to explain what it means, it likely doesn’t work as a logo, which is meant to clearly explain what a site / company wants to say about itself. In other words, a logo is there precisely to judge a blog / site. Clearly logos – or anything – can be deliberately misinterpreted by those with agendas to do so. However, I have no such agenda.
Hint 2, the logo is small and obscured by text so you can’t really tell what’s going on. I can’t and didn’t really see the newspaper – until you mentioned it – and it just looks like a guy wailing on a woman. When it runs unobscured on the single pages I can see that it’s Captain America or some other fictional character.
The repeated attempts to bring politics and the Iraq war into the discussion – and comparing anything about this to the rationale for war was over the top and didn’t do anything to help their arguments.
But when someone suddenly enjoys their limited controversy and that it has offended some people, well, it just becomes a game and removed from being a serious issue or discussion.
OK, my point has been, and continues to be, that we are for the most part a bunch of sarcastic funnies. I’m going to continue to be lighthearted about these issues too — it’s just the way I am.
I don’t understand how the logo is obscured by text. I look on the top left hand corner and see a superhero hitting a woman with a newspaper. I don’t know how this can be confused.
Whoever edits and publishes these atrciles really knows what they\’re doing.
Not surprised this is happening between you guys and Mirth. Just saying…LOL. Funny how some like to behind the scenes tell others how to run their blogs. Just saying again…
Mirth and her groupies have a way about them. Oh yes, a couple of them were longtime contributors to my blog until Mirth came along! Yep, she splintered her way into my blog, posted her email address, and then bammo! She has my longtime readers just like that.
Don’t believe for a second Alec that Mirth is right and you are wrong. She bossed me around behind the scenes about my blog. She was constantly emailing me to take her comments off, fix her comments, etc. Now she has her own blog (which wouldn’t have taken off if she hadn’t stolen my readers!) and IS STILL BOSSING PEOPLE AROUND ALL OVER THE INTERNET. Not surprised!
It’s sad too that Clif is running right along behind her to defend her. He’s a great man. It’s too bad.
Haha, I like it, blog-o-drama! Don’t worry, I don’t get bossed around easily, as we are still working our damn-dest to figure out the vast Left Wing Communist Nazi Jew Media conspiracy.
LMAO!
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