And I think you are a typical liberal who turns to personal attacks without a valid argument! The world would be a much better place without ignorant people like Frank here. Agree?
I’m also glad I wasn’t hit by a bus yesterday, so here I am. I’m glad no one chose to murder me in my sleep last night. Being glad you’re not aborted is redundant. You weren’t. If you were, you wouldn’t have an opinion on the matter. Comparing abortion to murder is as valid as saying ‘if we were meant to fly we’d have wings.’ Our intellect and technology have evolved – so, therefore, has our humanity. Therefore we have choice.
Yes, we have a choice. I can choose to murder a random stranger on the street. It’s still murder. The only difference between that and abortion is that abortion is legal.
Making a determination that getting hit by a bus is not murder (or perhaps is involuntary manslaughter) is the same as a moral judgment on terminating fetal cellular self-replication is also not murder (or justifiable whatever).
At 5 weeks, the fetal mass of tissue you refer to, is self replicating, has a rudimentary nervous systems that causes a simple heart to beat, and it has human DNA. Scientifically it is life I view it as a moralistic choice of convenience by small-minded people, who could put the child up for adoption.
Putting up a child for adoption can be a fate FAR worse than death could ever be. So many of my family members have grown up in that system(mother included) it is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful, putting the kid up for adoption is the WORST possible choice actually. It’s cruel.
I’m the youngest of too many children in my family, and I’ve had a pretty heavy pile of existential depression generally just always on top of me. If I’d been aborted, logic dictates I couldn’t be “happy” about it, of course. However, I most certainly would not be crushingly sad.
I suppose I’d just appreciate it if all pro-lifers would hear the pissed off voices of the unwanted children who’d rather not have been born.
We say “fuck off.”
This is for Anonymous September 22, 2011 at 6:45 PM
Putting up a child for adoption can be a fate FAR worse than death could ever be. So many of my family members have grown up in that system(mother included) it is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful, putting the kid up for adoption is the WORST possible choice actually. It’s cruel.
Having 3 beautiful cousins who were adopted and would probably be dead if they had not been, I have to disagree with you. Being adopted was the best possible thing for them and gave my Aunt and Uncle the opportunity to have children since she could not bear children naturally. Are there bad adoptive families? I’m sure there are. However there are bad biological families as well. All the children I have ever met who have been adopted have wonderful lives and love their families very much. I’m sorry your family has had a bad experience with adoption.
I bet you one women’s clinic, the judgmental society we live in, and the closed minded people running our government that you’re right. I would never in a million years get an abortion myself; however, I do not have the right to tell you what to do and am in no position to judge the decisions of others.
I agree about the double standard, but abortion has been around for ages and if abortion wasn’t legal, women would go ahead and get them anyways – just in extremely unsafe ways (ex: behind the local 7-eleven). Rather than making it completely illegal, the procedure should be paid for by the woman requesting the procedure and not by tax payers in general (unless it’s an extenuating circumstance (rape victims, or if the mother’s health is at risk – though that’s still a grey area for me and should instead, perhaps, be covered by health insurance anyways…). In a perfect world, I’d say outlaw it. But this isn’t a perfect world. Abortions would just turn into what street drugs are right now and then there would be even MORE problems. Can you imagine an “abortion dealer” sitting outside a GYN clinic asking passing pregnant women if they want an abortion (yea a tad melodramatic, but I think you catch my drift)?
In a perfect world women would always want their babies. But again, not the reality.
Legalizing anything would allow society to make it more appealing and more abundant. Drugs, prostitution, etc. Just because somebody really wants to something wrong and unsafe, doesn’t mean we should make it safer and legal. If you look at abortion as killing an innocent human beings, then the risk you take in getting one should be great. If a person tried to kill me, they should understand that they’re taking a serious risk of me hurting them, or possibly killing them. Just because a person finds me inconvenient to be around shouldn’t give them the right to kill me, or make it easier to kill me.
I guess this is why we have a problem, because i don’t look at is as “abortion is killing innocent human beings.” i see it as stopping a mass of cells from growing any further. yes, sure it is human dna and yes potentially it could be person. but its not. this fetus is not of its own, its not yet a human BEING. your example of someone trying to kill you is flawed. you are a being, with thoughts and will and a connection to the outside.
If wife beating wasn’t legal men would do it anyway, just in extremely unsafe ways (ex: behind the local 7-11.) If mugging were illegal muggers would still do it anyway, just in extremely blah blah blah. Legal and illegal are not functions of safety only. There IS a higher moral law than safety, society, progress and even “morality.” Besides, even in “safe” abortions one person always dies.
Murder, rape and theft have been around forever too. Such businesses are often conducted in back alleys or someplace not in the open. I don’t hear anyone saying we should legalize those activities.
Innocent babies go right to heaven thought right? Shouldn’t we all abort for their sake? I jest, but physiologically, a fetus is as much of a “living” creature as a plant, with no consciousness or capabilities, and unless you have never stepped on a blade of grass or eaten a salad then you are equivocally as guilty as someone who gets an abortion for destroying the same level of conscious life.(obviously i don’t think either of these things should cause great guilt) abortion means interrupting the process of building the organism that will one day become a human being, not just potential, if we are counting potential as full human beings, then there are children that could be born all the time if men could just purchase women or force them into sex, and anyone who believed differently must believe in the deaths of poor babies who didn’t get to live bullshit lives listening to stupid people that aren’t really satisfied with their own lives try to tell them how they should live. It’s ridiculous, really, you can’t murder something that hasn’t started living, people get so silly with words like murder so they can sound important or severe…it’s cliche, and it doesn’t make sense, and I really wish those people would get a new bit. If you start telling people they can or can’t do certain things with their own bodies and choices(which a fetus is still just a part of the mother) then you’re just around the corner from a police state where a bunch of people are telling you how to raise your kids and what to believe in and what is right and wrong instead of understanding for itself and utilizing your rights. If you want that, there are alot of other more dogmatic countries that support your kind of bigoted idiocy…oh wait, no that’s here in America…I can’t wait till your ignorance dies out in the face of the semantic web and my grandchildren will laugh when I tell them stories of how stupid and self-righteous people used to be even when they knew very little.
If by ‘fancy’ you mean unreadable, or something that barely resembles English. Cells are living by definition. The argument is not over whether or not a fetus is living. That’s not even debatable. The argument is whether or not they are human (pay attention in biology. Fetuses are human), specifically, whether or not they are as human as you.
And so the question must be asked, Lara. Why would you not in a million years get an abortion if you think it is ok for others to have one? What would stop you??
i am not Lara and not speaking for her, but me personally ” ” I would never in a million years get an abortion myself; however, I do not have the right to tell you what to do and am in no position to judge the decisions of others.”” i feel the same. it is my CHOICE to keep it… it is another woman’s CHOICE if she doesn’t!! i feel like if i ended up pregnant i could handle it. that is what would probably stop me from an abortion; that’s besides the point anyway! I can’t, and wont, or force her to do anything- whether its good or bad or whatever, its up to her to deal with her decision.
I live in Nambia, a developing country with an unemployment rate of 50%. Abortion is illegal. Young impoverished woman who find themselves giving birth to children they cannot support are resorting to a far more horrific solution. Baby dumping. Though I cannot speak for them, I am pretty certain that if they were given the choice, they would take it.
This is not a matter of guilt. Manipulation of the “young lady” by urging her to take your side by using obscene phrases is not a decision.
And yet, you’re suggesting she should have the choice, but choose to be pro life? Should the legal decision be left to the mothers, only if they choose life?
Everytime anyone wacks off or has protected sex potential “babies” are killed (where do you wanna draw the line?) , are you against that aswell? Just one senaro here…What about people who get pregnant who can’t afford to take care of them self let alone raise a child. Having a child is a privilege like owning a house. The bank won’t (shouldn’t)give you a loan to a house you can’t pay the bills. And it should be the same for having a child.
Again, pay attention in biology class. Semen and eggs are haploids, which means they each only have half the DNA required to make a human being. Once they conjoin into a single cell, that cell has complete human DNA.
Also, having a baby is not a luxury for the wealthy. I hear there are lots of people reproducing in 3rd world countries. It’s easy for you in your 1st world bubble to think that children can only be happy and healthy with material wealth. If you think being born amongst the poor in places like America, with all its welfare programs for parents, is a crime against humanity, then you have a rude awakening in front of you if you ever decide to go someplace where people haven’t forgotten to live with less.
Before you go on about people in the third world being happy with less, see my comment above. Just saying. Maybe before you berate others for their lack of knowledge, you should do a little research first.
99.9999% of the time it is common knowledge that if you stick a cock in a pussy and allow it to ejaculate in there, that the possibility of becoming pregnant exists, THEREFORE, there are no unplanned pregnancies when you choose to engage ins a sexual act that is known to cause pregnancy. Condoms break, the pill is 99% effective not 100%, timing method doesn’t work, yes, he will cum in you, don’t think he won’t lie about that.
I suppose rape or being inebriated in any way at all isn’t figuring into this story much. And that’s kind’ve besides the point of the cartoon anyway, seeing as it is saying that many women hold themselves to a standard that they are incapable of holding themselves to. I actually talked about this in an essay for my bio-ethics class.
Pretty much the pro-life argument is as follows:
1. It is wrong to kill an innocent person.
2. A fetus is an innocent person.
Conclusion: It is wrong to kill a fetus.
Reasonable, except that the argument assumes that a fetus is a person, which it is not. A person, from an ethical standpoint, is different from a human being. A human being is simply one who is biologically human, whereas a person is a being with ethical privileges and responsibilities.
For example, it’d be wrong to torture or kill an alien of similar intelligence to us because it retains it’s personhood through things like self-awareness, a desire to live, consciousness, ability to feel pain, etc. However, a fetus, though biologically human, possesses none of the qualities that give us personhood. So then you have to change the argument that to:
1. It is wrong to kill innocent persons.
2. A fetus is a potential innocent person.
Conclusion: It is wrong to kill a fetus.
However, this fails because 2 does not follow 1, as potential persons and persons are very different. If you attempt to change 1 to “It is wrong to kill potential innocent persons” that is logically unsound. That’d be like saying it’s okay to kill any human because they are potentially mass murderers.
There’s a couple of other angles on this but I’m tired and I want to eat pizza and play starcraft 2.
Actually, our argument is not that potential innocent persons should not be killed, but that innocent human beings should not be killed.
According to your own argument, a human being is simply one who is biologically human, and a fetus is not only biologically human but is also innocent because it has done nothing to hurt anyone.
So, hmm, I do believe that the pro-life movement IS logically sound.
Why don’t we care more about what our own individual person is doing than what others are doing to themselves, especially when it doesn’t affect us. Oh wait that would be reasonable.
You probably never went to elementary school because reading comprehension isn’t your forte, sir. A fetus is a parasite until it’s actually born, like cancer. Especially in severe cases of genetic diseases. Nope, let the mother give birth to this child, to have it inevitably die a couple months later. Yay she’s traumatized and mentally unstable now, probably fired and without a job, or behind in school! Yay… buttheads.
There is actually quite a bit of argument as to whether or not a fetus is human, but to say it is a parasite is so ridiculous that I can’t help but wonder if you’re trolling. A fetus IS biologically human before it is born because it has brain function and human parts. Advocates on both sides can agree that it shares the biology of a human.
Your comparison of a fetus to cancer shows that your posts are indeed true to your username. (Because reading comprehension isn’t your forte, this means that you’re a doofus just like your username says)
While I wouldn’t compare the parasitic relationship between a person and cancer to that of the relationship between a mother and fetus, the fetus is still a parasite. The fetus gains nutrient and oxygen for growth and metabolic function through the life-support system that the mother’s body provides. Without this life-support system, the fetus would not survive. The fetus is not providing any nutrient or direct benefit to the mother (outside of potential psychological benefit) and is plainly taking from that of the mother. Simply, the fetus is taking nutrient without providing any to the mother, the host.
do you even understand basic biological concepts? the definition of a parasite is an organism which sequesters nutrients and causes damage to its host, therefore a fetus is a parasite!
I care very much what another person is doing if it’s morally wrong. Did you get pissed off when the Penn St. scandal broke, even though you weren’t offended? I sure as hell did.
Whoops, I accidentally posted as anon earlier because I was on my other computer, but it’s still me and I’m back with a rebuttal after all this time. I’d like to say right off the bat that I respect your opinion and your argument analysis isn’t that bad, so props for that. Anyway, just know that the following isn’t meant to be a personal attack, because I know that these things can easily turn into flame wars and then nothing gets accomplished. I’d rather this just be two gentlemanly (or whatever you may be, i’m just speaking demographics here 😉 ) intellectuals arguing two VERY valid points.
Anyway, lets see if my bioethics class prepared me sufficiently…
Your new argument is as follows:
1. It is wrong to kill innocent human beings.
2. A fetus is an innocent human being.
Conclusion: It is wrong to kill a fetus.
Well then you go into whether or not simply being a “human being” biologically speaking gives you the right to live. For example, take a person in a coma that is draining on the limited resources of a family. The doctors say that it is incredibly unlikely that the person will ever wake up and in the meantime, their health insurance will not cover it and they will soon be thrown into massive debt, have their house seized etc. until they run out money entirely and he is taken off life support for lack of payment of the bill. Now. The question here is whether or not it is okay to let the person pass away? The answer is obviously yes, once the money runs out he’s going to die anyway and in the meantime we can stop his family’s lives from being destroyed by debt.
Okay, so now we can apply what we’ve learned to abortion. The human being in this case, the fetus, is a drain on the woman carrying the fetus, and will become a MASSIVE drain monetarily and socially in the future. Now the question that we have posed is whether or not being biologically human and innocent alone requires that we preserve you no matter what. Well, we have already come to the conclusion that this is false.
Another point can be made here as well: Is the fetus even what we can call a biological human? Because skin cells and sperm cells also possess human DNA and possess our biological structure etc. So at what point do we consider that little cluster of cells a “human being”. The answer, most pro-lifers suggest, is when the sperm and the egg come together to form a gamete. Okay, that makes sense at some level, if we were to then properly care for it at that stage, it would potentially develop into a full person. However, there are some issues with this. First is that the gamete still has none of the functions that make us a “human being” it has neither fingers nor limbs nor a brain… it’s just a mass of cells. In fact there’s been studies that for the first few weeks it is nearly impossible from a physical perspective to differentiate between a human fetus and that of a chicken or a cow. It has neither organs nor brain tissue as we said.
Whether or not you argue that it is wrong to kill persons or innocent human beings, the argument is still unsound because a fetus applies to neither.
A few more points that I would like to point out:
1. It is interesting to me that you would say that the fetus is innocent, when the pro-life movement is made up of largely by the dogmatically religious, and many Christians believe that we are born with original sin. Basically, that the fetus isn’t innocent. I don’t agree with this, just something to mull over while you drink your gin.
2. It is interesting to me that you value the life of something that cannot feel pain, or have valuable memories that will be expunged, or valuable connections or emotional attachment that will be severed, more than that of a girl who likely has all these things and more.
3. The pro-life argument is that innocent persons should not be killed. This is because that is an ethical argument that wasn’t only constructed for the defense of pro-lifers but also for the defense of life in general. The differentiation between human beings a persons was created to prevent things such as animal cruelty or the capture of intelligent animals like dolphins or monkeys.
Feel free to argue another angle or prove your point further! Cheers, friend.
Please allow me to interject my thoughts into your debate Matt. I do appreciate your desire to discuss and not argue. Heres just some food for thought to inject into your discussion with the others.
1. A human is defined by its DNA not what it looks like. So at the point of conception the embryo has human DNA, ipso facto, it is human. I don’t care if it looks like a fish. Your point about sperm having DNA yet isnt human is logical so I will add to this although I dont think you really disagree that it is human at this stage. That would be unreasonable. The addition is ‘direction.’ A female egg fertilized with male sperm directs a chain reaction that in most case will develop into a viable mature human and nothing else. An embryo is simply a stage in that development. A 12 year old doesn’t have tits but you wouldn’t say shes not a human female would you? 🙂
2. Most abortion discussions degrade to discussions about rape, incest or the death of a mother and in some cases the look of an embryo. These are deflections as they only account for less than 5% of the total abortions. They are side issues that should only be discussed after agreement has been reached on the other 95% or the discussion is bound for failure.
3. Other than “the morning after” pill, there have been no abortions performed before that baby had a heart beat.
4. Your “pulling the plug” analogy is flawed therefore should be discarded. In your analogy you compare a person whos body is trying to die to a child in the womb whos body is trying to live. We interject in that natural course to keep one of them alive and the other we are trying to kill. A big difference.
5. I disagree on your definition of personhood. Personhood is not an ethical designation it is a political designation.
Well I guess thats enough. Just wanted to put my two cents in. I dont’ mean to interrupt your conversation with others so I’m not expecting a reply.
so, you’re telling me that, sperm is human? its alive!? quick, everyone stop using condoms/pulling out! because by preventing the creation of human life you are committing murder!
I would not call a 12 year old a woman. Cracking an egg open and mixing it into the brownies is not the same as cutting a chicken open and mixing it into the brownies. The stage of development matters, because it is a parasitic relationship. If there were a way to remove fetuses from the uterus without harming them, and allow their mothers to give them up for adoption at that point, I would be more prone to have a ‘ban all abortion’ talk. But there isn’t. Until viability, the fetus’s only manner of survival is through the human host.
The majority of Christian sects do not believe in the dogma of original sin. And one can be pro-life without using the faintest whiff of religion in their arguments.
Yes, but skin cells are a dependent organism, in that it does not exist as an individual. A fetus is by definition an independent organism that exists separately from the host body.
Now, that doesn’t mean it is completely independent of the mother, since that would be an incredibly stupid claim. I’m speaking strictly in biological terms here.
I’m not hating, Chaz. I realize your talking about potential when you’re saying a fetus is an independent organism, but a fetus has a 50/50 chance of survival outside the womb at 24 weeks (roughly two-thirds term), and that is with the most intense, involved, dedicated medical care that technology and the world can provide us, as well as months of living in an isolated chamber with breathing and eating taken care of for the fetus. Before then, chances of survival outside the womb are negligible. This makes a fetus by definition UTTERLY dependent upon another organism, biologically and in every other way.
Let’s see… what about if attempting to carry the baby to term will kill the mother? Are you suggesting it’s right to hold this unborn fetus’s life above that of the mother when she is likely just as innocent? That seems pretty wrong to me.
I don’t believe I’ve met a pro-lifer that thinks that personally, but I’m sure they exist. That being said, the majority of pro-lifers do allow for shades of grey, like ectopic pregnancies, because the fetus would not have survived. That being said, I can’t think of any medical situation in which you would have to choose between a fetus that is capable of surviving outside of the mother, and the mother. Doctors take an oath to do no harm. Any doctor that doesn’t attempt to save both child and mother in a situation where either one of them could survive has no right practicing medicine. Certainly not in this day of advanced medicine. That entire argument is moot.
Sometimes yes. But not always. Healthy white babies are in high demand and are easily adopted. If the baby isn’t white or isn’t healthy (e.g crack babies, or children with physical or mental handicaps) it’s more difficult.
It’s also worth pointing out that there are pregnancies that can not produce a living child and may also kill the mother (ectopic pregnancies being only one). Would you really expect a woman to carry a child for 9 months knowing it will be born dead?
Sorry, but your argument that an ectopic pregnancy is present and the mother is knowingly carrying the deceased child is deeply flawed. When this occurs and doctors are aware, they do not preform an abortion. Minilaparotomy and Laparoscopy are procedures that remove the ectopic pregnancy and are in no way related to an abortion. Please get your facts straight. Also, an abortion can further result in medical complications later in life; the risk of ectopic pregnancies doubles, and the chance of a miscarriage and pelvic inflammatory disease also increases.
Whoa, whoa whoa. Removing an ectopic pregnancy is removing a pregnancy. Removing a pregnancy is abortion. In an ectopic pregnancy, the fetus is very much alive, just implanted somewhere other than the uterus which is life-threatening for the woman carrying it.
And I really don’t hate to break it to you, but abortion is one of the safest medical procedures in the world. All of those risks you mentioned are merely lies made up by the anti-choicers to scare women away from having this extremely safe medical procedure.
I love how people bring rape into this argument so flippantly. I was raped, and my daughter is the best thing that’s ever happened to me. Though the circumstances of her conception are horrible, it in no way devalues her worth as a person. So arguing that rape babies should be aborted is ignorant.
Thank you, on behalf of all of us who came into the world that way. I will always be grateful my mother had the courage to bring me into this world and the wisdom to know (at sixteen) that she was REALLY not ready for motherhood. My adoptive family, my husband and my children beg to differ with all y’all who think rape babies don’t deserve a chance at life. Just cause “daddy” was a (series of expletives deleted) doesn’t mean baby will be.
It’s not that rape babies /must/ be aborted, it is that the mother, after being in a situation where all control was taken from her, should have the choice whether to carry the rapist’s child. It could be a healing experience like it was for you. Or it could be an incredibly damaging experience, that causes permanent harm to the woman and she forever regrets and reviles the child for the memory it causes her to relive.
Not all pro-life advocates are anti-sex education. That is an obnoxious claim. Perhaps if we actually taught kids about the consequences of sex, and how to use birth control, fewer of them would be making such a life-altering decision when they aren’t even old enough to choose a president.
it’s not just black and white. sometimes what seems wrong is what’s right, because the situation entitles something bad be done to stop something worse. i’ve had friends in adoption homes, its awful there, and i’ve met tons of people who’s lives were set back horribly to keep a child when they werent ready, and their children suffered because of it, as well as them. the general rule of thumb i have is that if i can support a child financially without being poor, i have to do it, and if i have one when i cant, i would get an abortion. rape is different though, if you’re raped, it isnt your own fault that this happened, and its entirely up to you, i personally wouldnt keep it, because it’s not my own irrisponsability that cause it.
Is it fair to bring a child into an abusive relationship? Or what about a pregnant drug addict? What if a woman isn’t even sure who her baby daddy is? It’s not a perfect world, and it’s not fair to say “Oh well you know the consequences so don’t do it.” People are going to do it anyway! Plus, can we really afford to publicly fund all these orphanages that would be a result of banning abortion?
I have babies and I have never had an abortion, although when I was young I would have considered having one if I did happen to get pregnant. I can understand that people are in different situations and it’s none of my business what they chose to do in their spare time and the choices they make.
People will always be put into bad situations, and if this were a perfect world you could say “ohhh you should’ve done it like this _______ .” But, bad things happen to good people. We all make mistakes, and if someone feels that bringing a baby into this world isn’t the right thing to do, that is there choice. It’s not a decision that is EVER taken lightly. You can make us sound like baby killers, but having a baby or getting an abortion changes you forever.
People will always be getting abortions if it’s legal or not. Abortions will ALWAYS be done. There will always be a black market, and people will take unsafe measures to be rid of a fetus. Would it not be ‘more ethical’ to provide abortions in a safe, clean environment? Do you really want more people (women) to risk the danger of contracting a serious infection or even death from receiving an ‘underground’ abortion? Then they will just end up back in the healthcare system (if you are Canadian) costing you more tax dollars? (not that abortions are free here).
And as I always say, there is how many billions of people out there? Does the Mother Earth really need more? It’s better to destroy life before they know they have it, than to destroy someone who already knows what life is.
Or don’t create it to begin with. Legalized abortion in a 1st world country is not the way to reduce overpopulation. Educating women in 3rd world countries and giving them the freedom to start a career and marry when and whom they choose is the single most effective way to stall the birthrate.
What exactly would the U.S get out of the pro-life agenda being pushed through? Aborations made illegal? Well hate to break it to you, that’s not going to stop abortions.As some one from Brazil, the most catholic nation in the world that strictly bans abortion, I can tell you I know more Brazilians that have had abortions then Americans. Just instead of doing in in safe sterile doctors office’s, they throw themselves down stairs, do large amounts of drugs, or take “remedies” (basically posionous herbs) to cause miscarriages. Or they get themselves into debt paying unqualified black market “doctors” to give them abortions. Or they commit suicide, killing 2 “innocent people”. Is that any better?
Don’t you dare say Pro-choice is pro-murder. I HATE the idea of abortions. But I’m not going to allow my personal ideology to affect a rational policy decision. You’re just as pro-murder as I am, only you want it swept under the rug where you won’t hear about it, so you can feel better about yourself. Really fucking noble.
I am also Brazilian. The person above is absolutely right. Half of the women i know have had abortions. It will always be done regardless of being legal or not.
To me, both pro-choice and pro-life stances are extreme simplistic positions. I cannot be 100% pro-life because there are morally acceptable situations when I can kill another person – in self defense or war, for example. But in most situations I have the moral responsibility to respect the other person’s right to live.
I cannot be 100% pro-choice because I believe that the other person’s right to live should not be a matter of my choice. Especially when the other person or life form is not in a position to defend against a threat. So
I would gladly call myself a pro-lifer, except that I cannot see myself hanging out with the politically charged proponents of pro-life who are so intensely emotional about the issue that they would gladly destroy anyone who disagrees with their position that all life is sacred.
Agreed, I lean pro-life strongly. I believe in individual rights, including the rights of unborn babies to life. In some cases abortion is reasonable and not morally objectionable. In the majority of others it is selfish and violates the unborn’s basic rights. A poster above made the implication that aborting a baby conceived when “inebriated” was rational, which is a sickening precedent. It isn’t justifiable to use intoxication as an excuse for other acts, legally.
I’m sorry, but you can’t be pro-life and also claim to believe in individual rights. By law, a fetus isn’t a person. I personally lean more toward pro-choice for this reason. I don’t like that a woman can kill a POTENTIAL life, but I don’t think that my beliefs should outweigh their right to choose.
That’s not “morally acceptable, ” it is “socially acceptable.” It is socially acceptable to kill people in war. Morally, we’d work it out some other way.
First off – it is incorrect to called it ‘pro-life’. Life applies to everything that lives and not just humans. If people truly respected life – they wouldn’t be killing and eating animals let alone eating calves or other ‘younglings’ as delicacies.
Pro choice isn’t pro murder as this very intelligent gentleman says above with his cock & bull story. One of the arguments is about aborting a fetus in a situation where a girl gets raped and does not wish to have a child. Agreed that there is a chance for a pro-choice law to be abused (like everything else in our legal system) but doesn’t mean that society has to make a choice for every individual – as a blanket rule.
I agree that pro-life is a bad name for it, but so is pro-choice for that particular position in the debate, because it implies that everyone involved has a say in the matter, when it’s almost always the woman’s decision alone. Let’s get down to it and call the pro-abortion and anti-abortion.
Furthermore, killing animals and consuming their flesh is a normal product of human evolution. We are omnivores. We kill, we eat. As I’ve stated elsewhere, any abortion that is not a natural one violates the principles of natural selection.
killing and eating an animal is just as much a choice as taking an abortion has been. And women have taken abortions for ages, using herbs that were known for those properties etc, and can also be considered a normal product of human evolution. I really don’t see the difference that you claim there is.
Well, the truth is that pro-choice is the right scenario. How can you expect a woman to carry a child that is the result of rape to full term? It would be a constant reminder of an uncleanliness that she feels. Besides, putting the body through the extreme pregnancy is unfathomable, and the time off needed, well it is not an option for some when accidents do happen, for example teen mothers.
I don’t know but considering the law acknowledges that you are considered a person after your first breath, not before, it seems that abortion will stay legal.
If the basis of analysis is the human fetus, then what does that have to do with whether it is a person? The mother should bear it and put it up for adoption. The unborn child is still an unborn child. This may be very distasteful for some, but then people find many things that are morally correct to be distateful…. and find convenient rationalizations to go ahead with the morally incorrect choice despite the fact that, whether consciously or unconsciously, the persons knows it’s the wrong choice to make.
Also, put it another way…. a rapist made the woman a victim…. but now the woman is going to kill an unborn person and create her own victim… how is that possible the right answer?
Except that morality is subjective. Your morality might not be the same as mine. In the situation of abortion, I along with most people would say that it is immoral. However, where does this stop? You can’t have laws based on religion that not everyone believes in (Im’ just assuming that most of the pro-life arguments here are based on religious beliefs.)
That’s why we have law, to clarify what objective morality should be. Pro-lifers think that to have laws on the books that forbid and punish murder, on one hand and sanctify it on the other, makes no sense. And assuming that everyone who is pro-life is religious is incredibly naive. One can argue the philosophy of the debate without ever bringing religion into the equation. At its core, the debate is philosophical, legal, and biological.
There are 7 billion people on the planet. There is no sign of any supernatural being punishing us if this biological prosperity against so much “sin” is to go by. This is counter to the logic of Christian beliefs.
Our success however is clearly impugning upon the rights of MANY other species. Aborting small sacs of chemicals not only ensures a more prosperous future for current humans but represents true spiritual wisdom above the horror of humancentric religious malfeasance.
if you are not one who thinks that a woman shouldn’t be able to make her own decision about whether to keep a baby or not then maybe your mother should have been pro-choice.
don’t be fucking stupid. its not your choice nor does it affect you so leave these women alone.
better to kill one then to have more than two. you rabbit fucking inbred morons need to stop procreating anyways. we have too many people as is and could probably be a better race if we wiped half the people off this planet anyways.
here is an idea. if you have more than 2 kids then drag them outside and shoot them. because its your retarded family genes that thinks the world will be fine if i keep pushing out an over population of idiocy. and we need to put an end to that right now.
so how about you go evaluate the damage your big floppy pussy has done to the world before you criticize anyone else about there kids or lack thereof.
That is one of the most disgusting things I have ever read. I’m sure you’re exaggerating for dramatic effect, but take a step back and try to argue rationally if you’re going to take a stance and quit with the ad hominem.
I agree with you on so many levels. Here in Ireland people walk around with 4, 5 kids!! And you know why (in a LOT of the cases)? Because the government pays you a monthly allowance per kid. How about that?
if you are not one who thinks that a woman shouldn’t be able to make her own decision about whether to keep a baby or not then maybe your mother should have been pro-choice.
don’t be fucking stupid. its not your choice nor does it affect you so leave these women alone.
better to kill one then to have more than two. you rabbit fucking inbred morons need to stop procreating anyways. we have too many people as is and could probably be a better race if we wiped half the people off this planet anyways.
here is an idea. if you have more than 2 kids then drag them outside and shoot them. because its your retarded family genes that thinks the world will be fine if i keep pushing out an over population of idiocy. and we need to put an end to that right now.
so how about you go evaluate the damage your big floppy pussy has done to the world before you criticize anyone else about there kids or lack thereof.
This basically sums up the pro-choice mind-frame- it is ENTIRELY subjective. Letting that subjectiveness override fact (that life begins at conception- it’s an undebatable fact) and that because the world is forcing lies down the throats of the vulnerable- saying that abortion it isn’t destroying a life, young women are swayed by the illusion of their being a ‘choice’. This made me sigh when I first saw it, but then I read a few of the comments and feel more at peace by the many pro-life comments.
Me as well. I have read these for at least 20 minutes and have passed the urge to comment several several times! But to say that the minute sperm touches the egg it is a human/life is just ignorance. If that’s the case then the sperm itself is “life”. It swims to the egg. There is “life” in sperm. …
I’ve read a lot of the comments on this post and there are only a few that don’t make me mad.
The one thing I can narrow it down to is RESPONSIBILITY. If you aren’t in the position to raise a child (either economically, physically, or emotionally) then you just aren’t. Yes things change and more importantly PEOPLE change, but what’s important to one person is NOT necessarily important to another. That’s why the CHOICE must be available.
Humans are one of the BILLIONS of organisms on Earth and a single lost fetus is nothing to get so upset about. You can keep asking “WHAT IF he/she grew up to be a president” or “WHAT IF he/she is some kind of reincarnate deity” but none of that can ever mean ANYTHING. Things are what they are and will continue to be so plus or minus a few unintentional pregnancies.
I don’t know about you people, but MY thoughts on human existence are in no way connected to “cover the Earth in humans and their SHIT.”
Main point– Having children is stressful (period) and there are infinite inherent risks, but you can either COPE or NOT. Preferably make up your mind before while you can and don’t pass whatever problems you have on to your kids.
I don’t think anyone should be able to tell another human being what to do or how to think, there decision doesn’t affect you, so why bitch and complain about it?
some people i have talked about abortion to tell me its a sin, yeah so be it, but so is 98% of the things we all do. If its not you personally going through it, back the fuck off, you have no say.
I agree with you. It is not my responsibility to tell other women what to do with their own bodies. If I were to have an unplanned pregnancy, I would want to have the choice to do what I thought was right, regardless of the circumstances. If I think abortion is wrong, then I won’t get one. My point is, I feel that women should have the right to choose. No one should have the right to tell other people what to do with their own bodies, whether it be having sex with a partner of the same biological sex or aborting an unwanted pregnancy.
Right, and the scandal at Penn St. with the pedophile football coach very likely didn’t affect you personally, either. Who are we as a society to tell him where he can and can’t put his dick? …The sort of logic that concludes that if it doesn’t affect you, it doesn’t matter, disturbs me deeply.
Just because you are pro-choice does not automatically mean you anti-life. Besides, don’t you find it funny that most people that are pro-life are also pro-war….hmmmmmm seems very hypocritical….but that’s America for you. Full of hypocrites!!!
You know what else is hypocritical? Anyone who’s ever shed a tear over an abused animal and then turned around and said it’s okay to terminate a pregnancy.
I’m pro-life. I disagree with the death penalty. I dislike animal cruelty. And I would never advocate a war that wasn’t directly self-defense related. Get off your high horse.
Just so you know, I actually found out I am pregnant, while in the middle of a divorce. I have always been pro-life. Obviously this isn’t the greatest time for me to have a baby. So I am placing the baby. I am now 14 weeks pregnant. So how dare you lower the decent people in the world to your level.
you should think long and hard about keeping a kid, yes it should be the woman’s choice. the choice is not a small one it affects the rest of your life, that’s why it should be a choice! my mom was married they both had good jobs but when the child came along and was disabled he left my mother (he was pro life until he had a disabled child).
Get over yourselves ppl, its ppl like yall that make ppl not want to be Christians in the first place. You all are probably the people who post on your facebook all the time about the Bible and Being more like Jesus, well geuss what Jesus did not judge and only God can judge anyone. Live your own life and let others make their own decisions! If you truly want to reach someones heart it is not by making them feel worthless. Why would anyone want to be a part of something where they’re constantly judged? Always keep this in the back of your head before you jump to judge, no sin is greater then any other, WWJD, and he who hath not sinned cast the first stone.
Its wrong it kill another person unless this person is a direct intentional threat to other people.
I think we can all agree with this. So the argument is centered around if an unborn person is a person. Some say as long as it isn’t born yet its not a person others say as long as it isn’t past a certain point in the pregnancy.
I feel we need to be honest with ourselves in that none of us know. None of us know when life starts, when a mass of matter suddenly becomes that glorious this that is life, when that spark suddenly reaches in and a separate person is born. But we do know one thing. When life ends. If there is a question is something is a person or not then yes it is a person.
Yes some random girl having an abortion doesn’t effect me. But neither does a 45yr man doing it with a 13yr boy or a mother that abuses her kids not even a murder in my own city effects me directly. But that’s not the point is it?
The kid is likely to have a hard life? So are all the children in 3rd world countries. Hard times are a part of life.
Rape? Yes it sucks and yes its going to be painful. But again two wrongs don’t make a right. punish the rapist not the child. Though to be fair if anyone has a right to an abortion they do.
The world is getting over populated and needs to be thinned out? To words, You first.
People really need to be educated on other ways to have sex and not get pregnant. The sky is the limit really. I don’t know about funding but I could see a Blowjob class going pretty well in my town 😛
Your original statement, which you claim is incontrovertible, “it’s wrong it kill another person unless this person is a direct intentional threat to other people”, is in direct conflict with your entire pro-life stance.
The fact is, that the growth of an embryo will always act in the same manner and when everything goes to plan, will produce the same end result – one could call this process ‘intentional’ by god or whomever or whatever you believe in. This can be a direct threat to the mother in many circumstances. Financially, ill-prepared mothers can end up poor, possibly homeless or in a variety of horrible situations that are dangerous and a ‘direct threat’ to both herself and the baby, thus qualifying her an exception to your own rule. An emotionally unstable mother may well cause significant harm to herself and the child in such a situation, again qualifying as a ‘direct threat’. There are a thousand more examples: physically, psychologically and so on, so forth. Who can truly objectively draw the line as to the appropriate threat to the mother vs wrongness of killing where it is justifiable for a woman to terminate her pregnancy?
I’ve never been able to understand the narrow-mindedness of such a large group of people, thank whomever that you don’t make the rules in my country.
what is ridiculous about the discourse regarding the abortion issue is this: that no one questions why a woman would want to abort a fetus in the first place. The rightist “because she’s a bad person” is the exact opposite of this substantial questioning and furthermore, a shelter from the difficulties of having empathy that the Christian conception, were it legitimately born of empathy for the suffering, would demand. The leftist “I understand why she would” serves as little more than an apology for a society which demands making the choice between living an independent life and the form of servitude that motherhood has become.
The issue here shouldn’t be whether or not it’s okay for a woman to have an abortion or not, the issue should be “what can we do to change society so that motherhood is a less oppressive institution?” Motherhood, following the economic emancipation of women in relation to men, has become more oppressive in that women are now subjected to the oppression of having to engage in capitalistic relations of production while simultaneously having the traditional burdens of nurturing a family. The economic emancipation of women is hardly freedom at all in capitalistic society. Women absolutely should be emancipated economically, but as they say “no freedom without that of society,” until the beatdown of the average working person that is inherent to capitalism is overcome, motherhood will be an additional burden (which men do not have to suffer) on top of the burden of the work-a-day abstract monotony of everyday economic life.
abortion is a personal choice, not a political debate. Only your decision is yours to make. What is right for someone else may not be right for you or make you happy, but why does that matter? Truth is, women are going to get abortions and it will continue for many many years, just like it has been around for many years. You are in no position to judge someone else’s personal decision. Everything happens for a reason, it keep our world running in order. This earth can barely provide for 6 billion people. Now imagine if zero of those 6 billion people got abortions. We wouldn’t be able to survive as a species.
Again, murder, war crimes and other wrongs have been around for a long time, too. That doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands as a society and legalize them. According to your logic, if I make the personal decision to run my husband over with my car, no one else has the right to get involved, because it doesn’t involve anyone but him and myself.
And like someone else said, abortion in wealthy nations that have low birthrates to begin with is not going to stop the population from rising. You want to slow population growth? Give every woman in the world at least a high-school level education, and give monetary compensation to people who voluntarily have themselves sterilized.
Think of this from the possible unborn child’s life. If it’s mother keeps it to full term and she doesn’t want it where does it go? To the legal system, and what does the legal system do? Put them into foster care where they will jump from family to family for 18 years. Now, they may get adopted but the market to adopt babies is not that big.
I have seen lives of foster care kids; Most don’t do well in school because of their moving constantly and their lack of motivation, many turn to drugs, alcohol, cutting, and suicide to get away from the pains of living in the system. Plus the psychological damage that is done when the child figures out they were not loved from the moment they were brought in this world.
Sometimes abortions are not only good for the mother but also for the child who will now never go through the hardship of the legal system.
Now I wrote this on my own personal perspective of the topic and I understand that this does not cover every unwanted child but it is just a blanket scenario from what I have seen to foster kids. So I hope that you understand this as well.
Because playing on the moral bankruptcy of scared people stooping the the level of murdering an innocent baby is much better than asking them to display any kind of courage, responsibility, and dignity in living with the consequences of their own decisions.
Right, abortion is magic right? It’s not like the former mother actually thought about it, or is traumatized by her necessary decision. No, instead she has the abortion, and decides have sex with the next guy she sees.
You can’t escape the consequences of your actions; but you should be allowed to choose what actions you take.
Not if it’s murder. Pro-choice is only pro-choice in that the woman gets to choose in a situation that involves at least 3 people: her, the child, and the father. Since the fetus can’t voice its opinion, we should probably assume that it intends to survive unless it comes clawing its way out of her womb.
Living in a country where religion and politics ARE separated, I don’t get why religion has so much influence on politics in the US, as is the case. Doesn’t your constitution specifically state to separate the two?
Reasons why I’m glad religion doesn’t play any role in the public room: We don’t have killings of abortion doctor’s. We don’t have antigay protesters at funerals(If there where they would get arrested for tresspassing a private ceromony) Here religion is considered a private matter, that you keep to yourself. In fact NO European politicians hoping to get elected advertise their religious beliefs in any way. They don’t mention God all the time and they don’t put prayers in their speeches. Why? Because they know, they would loose votes rather than gain votes by doing so. Not even the christian based parties, that we do have, do it. Germany’s Merkel is from “The Christian Democratic Union Party” she NEVER ends a speech with a referrence to God or an “Amen”.
So stop mixing religion and politics. After all religion has always been the biggest single source of evil in history!
My parents decided not to have children until they had been married at least 5 years. My mom got pregnant at 4 years in, so true to the plan they decided they would abort it. Mom was home one day watching a T.V. talk show with some girl who aborted her kid and was sobbing crying about it, really busted up. So she got all bleary eyed and went to my dad begging him to let her keep it. He basically said “Yeah that’s fine lets go for it” and they had their first child. You can probably guess that I’m talking about myself.
I wouldn’t be super pissed off about it if they had never had me. Don’t get me wrong and all, I love life and being alive. I’m not some emo bitch who whines all day and listens to sad music. But I don’t think that dying is the end of our journeys by any means, and I certainly don’t think not being born into this world would put a damper on my journey for a second.
Pro Choice FTW. Get your shit together before bringing kids into the world you can’t take care of.
Oh, sure, if you’re pro-life, you’re automatically a fuckin’ baby-murderer. Oh, sure, you’re automatically a bad person. Jesus Christ, just because pro-life is YOUR choice, doesn’t mean that anything other than your choice is fuckin’ right. Please make time to dislodge your head from your ass. Who the fuck is to say what’s right and what’s wrong anyway? I mean, dammit. If If I want to get a goddamned motherfucking abortion then by all fucking means, I’m going to do it. I don’t know if that’s wrong and I don’t know if that’s right but it doesn’t really matter because IT’S MY CHOICE. I hate people sometimes. Ignorant fucks. Have a fabulously self-righteous, pompous, all-knowing fuckin’ day.
I notice those of you leaving comments are mostly male…hence, your opinions are based on NOTHING, never been raped by a sick Uncle, never had the condom break, and the best of all..Men are disgustingly free from their actions in this matter, you can take off and disregard any responsibilities..any consequences..any unwanted children..women are left cleaning up half of the mess..either grow a pair, or keep your ill-educated feelings to yourselves..and as for you ladies.. the above image is accurate, don’t ever say NEVER..and don’t you ever think for one second you are somehow morally above the woman who made the right decision for HERSELF..not for the sensibilities of others, your judgements are by far the most insulting because this could happen to you.
Unfortunately men -are- raped by their sick uncle. And when it happens it tends to be more traumatic because of societal bias. I’m also pretty sure that for every condom that’s broken there’s a man involved. Legally, it’s women who can choose abortion and be “disgustingly free from their actions in this matter, you can take off and disregard any responsibilities..any consequences..any unwanted children”. Conversely, men are left to pay for the mess through the force of law, whether or not they chose to have the child.
What about the guy whose condom breaks and wants to accept responsibility. The guy who wants to raise his child. But his wife doesn’t want a baby so she has an abortion. She can kill his baby without his consent. He has no choice and neither does the baby. How is this right?
Our first pregnancy resulted in our choice to abort the fetus. We found out around 3 months that the baby my wife was carrying suffered from a rare disorder (not genetic, BTW) called body-stalk anomaly, or sometimes known as limb-body wall complex. Some of the organs were external to the fetus and actually fused to the placental wall. It was impossible for the child to live if we had decided to take the baby to full term. So we opted to abort: For her sake and for the baby’s. And just to clarify for some of the pro-choice folks: It isn’t always just about “her” right to choose: That is a tremendous amount of pressure to put on someone who in such a situation is already in a horrible state. In most cases, a man was responsible for the action just as much as she was, and it is his responsibility to support her though decisions like that. Not because we’re men, but because that is what a relationship is: You both accept the good and the bad when it happens.
Life isn’t always that simple folks. We’ve always been pro-choice, but that was the most difficult decision of our lives. Not a day goes by when I don’t think about it. But we had a choice: Not someone’s religious agenda stomping on our decision. What some of you need (on both sides) is a little empathy. For those of you who are so devoutly against abortion, I don’t think you’ve thought it all the way through. If you think you can really enumerate all of the potential situations where it should be legal for an abortion to be performed, you are delusional. No one knows everything that could potentially happen.
Why don’t you just try helping people who are out of the womb? You’d be amazed at how far that goes to helping those that will be in one.
If you go back and read that last statement, you might find it to be rather arrogant to assume that someone who is pro-life only cares about people up until they’re born. I’d wager a great many of them donate their time and money to other worthy causes just as your illustrious self.
For somebody or any government to tell what a woman can do with her own body goes totally against the principles this nation was built upon. Pro choice or Pro life is not the governments decision, it is the decision of the woman.
As a person who has had to make this decision my belief is that if a person cannot give a baby the proper life and provide every essential need for the baby then maybe you should not have the baby.
yeah boy…can’t no one tell me what to do…shiiitt I run red lights all the time. F the police it’s my car, right?
I may not be able to provide a suitable argument, but all I know is that newborns are the only innocent people in our world…I say give them all a chance.
Being pro-life doesn’t mean you have can’t be pro choice as well… I personally agree if you want to have an abortion, have one, if you don’t, don’t. PROCHOICE… If you want to keep if because you are against it you’re PRO-CHOICE, just choosing to keep it…
You’re not a goddamn bad person if you get an abortion. Every woman has a right to their own choice. Get off your judgmental high horse and get the fuck out of other peoples business.
Until the fetus can be separated from the mother, it should be considered part of the mother, and how or whether to care for it needs to be her decision and responsibility. Until you can carry that fetus to term for her, you are basically sentencing the mother to a biological jail sentence and giving no other solution.
Until the father can carry the fetus, all he can do is offer support and hope that is enough. It sucks, but that’s the reality. Otherwise, where is the line? If mom doesn’t take her prenatal vitamins and the baby dies can he sue her for baby neglect?
Besides, how do you prosecute offenders? How do you tell the difference between an illegal abortion and a natural miscarriage? Are you going to jail everyone who has a miscarriage for murder? Make them prove their case in court?
The scenarios that don’t consider the unique situation of the fetus and the mother is comparing apples to oranges.
Until every child who is already born has a safe environment and a real chance at a full life, why don’t we focus on helping them? Or help provide a support structure for desperate people to turn as an alternate?
Many of the people choosing abortion are desperate and have no support structure. Change that, and you change the abortion rate without even having to tell someone how to live their life or get government involved in their reproductive cycle, with the added bonus of dealing with the root issue instead of the symptom. All the current debate does is cause conflict and put very personal, highly private, personal responsibility in the government’s hands and legislates one person’s morality over another.
This is not a difficult argument. The ethics are muddied by belief rather than fact and this is always hard to reconcile, I’m sensitive to that. However in a society that is far from perfect and therefore outside the ideals enforced by pro-life, pro-choice is the only choice. I would love to believe in a world where pro-lifers were right. But it doesn’t exist. Therefore the choice needs to exist. And if you need convincing… http://www.isteve.com/abortion.htm
How is it fair for us to say that all clusters of cells in a gamete are human? At what point are these little clusters considered so? If killing a small group of cells that would, BUT HAVE YET TO BECOME, a human being is considered murder, would all girls on their period be arrested? What about guys jacking off? Sperm and egg cells have a chance at creating human life, and just their unification to create a gamete does not mean any more or any less until that gamete becomes a baby with real, non maternally supported life.
Also consider the fact that if rape and incest victims can have abortions without criticism, the entire platform of many arguments are shattered. If you think it is okay to kill a potential baby in certain circumstances, it is okay in all circumstances. A baby is a baby(innocent), and if one says that certain fetuses are okay to be killed while some arent, that undermines the conclusion that one is pro-life. Though abortion isnt a nice solution, there should be less argument over whether or not it should be legal. If you can abort certain healthy babies, like children of rape victims(totally support abortion in this case, by the way), It is only fair to make it legal to abort any baby if the mother wishes. A baby is a baby, they are equally innocent whether they be cause of rape, unprotected sex, or planned parenthood. It sucks to have to do this, but choice is the fairest option.
From a moral perspective, I despise abortion. However, I am fairly certain that no arguing or pushing to any extreme will change the laws for this reason: To abolish abortion is to abolish abortion entirely.
So, for example, if the doctor predicted certain complications at birth that could cripple or kill the host, an abortion is the suggested procedure, so that the mother may be spared rather than needlessly killing her with the dying baby. Regulations could be made, but then where does the line go? How likely does death or permanent injury need to be to justify the abortion. In fact, what sort of complications would be considered justifiable in the first place?
Secondly, what about the case of rape? A woman is raped (or claims rape as in the case that started this whole argument) and becomes impregnated. Is it possible to make an exception for her? No. For this reason: The only way to make abortion illegal is to classify it as first-degree murder. If one is raped, she is unable to kill the rapist legally (after the act, of course). Therefore, it would still be illegal to abort the baby in spite of the potential damage it could do to her physically, emotionally, financially, etc.
On top of this, our country is dealing with more pressing matters, involving the so-called “war”, getting our troops home, trying not to implode economically, and so on. We as human beings can urge others to make the right choice, but attempting to enforce it will be nothing more than a wasted effort.
I’m curious as to why people think that it must be an all-or-nothing abolishment. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’ve never worked in a medical field, if you think that there is a /predictable/ condition that would allow the fetus to be carried to term, only to kill the mother in childbirth. You might be thinking of ectopic pregnancies, but that fetus cannot be carried to term. It will /not/ survive, and if not removed, neither will the mother. An ectopic pregnancy must be removed before the fetus is viable, and perhaps one day, we will be able to save them too. No doctor that has any business practicing medicine would allow the mother to try and have a vaginal birth with a child that they know will have complications. That’s what caesarean sections are for; to save mother and child. If either one dies that late in a pregnancy, it should /never/ be because the doctor actively killed one to save the other.
There’s nothing wrong with being pro-life, just don’t restrict the rights of others with your own ideology. If it’s in her womb, feeding off her nutrients, as a parasite, it can’t survive on its own and therefore it’s the mothers choice. If your pro-life don’t get an abortion, simple.
Who says it’s painful? It’s denying someone’s right to live, which is an affront to humanity. No one said anything about the fetus dying and going to a place of eternal agony and torment because mommy didn’t want them.
Pro abortion. Until all of the uncared for children out there are given safe homes with loving families, why should we bring more into this world? If your god cares so much about all of these “innocent lives,” then why do millions of children starve to death, get molested, die of illnesses, etc. daily? For fucks sake, stop concerning yourselves with these insignificant things that have no cognitive abilities, cannot experience pain, and take up more room on our planet. OPEN UP YOUR FUCKING EYES and see what is in front of you. See the beings that are in constant agony and try putting a bit more energy in fighting for THEIR rights. Maybe then we could improve the miserable conditions that ail our worthless species.
It’s your own CHOICE………Sometimes abortion is the right thing in certain cases. If you were raped and got pregnant would you want a reminder every day that your childs father is a rapist and his sperm created them. HELL NO. So don’t think abortion is wrong in every situation….If it was it wouldn’t be legal.
Judging by your use of “my fiance” and not “my ex-boyfriend” or “ex-fiance” or “this one guy,” I am absolutely ecstatic for you that you have a supportive, loving man in your life who made your pro-life stance possible.
Some women are not so lucky.
And being pro-life was YOUR CHOICE, but should your fiance not have been so supportive, at least you had one.
My husband and I, too, had an unplanned pregnancy while we were still “just kinda engaged.” And we kept the child – my son is the light of my life.
Doesn’t mean I feel I need to force my decision to not personally wish to have an abortion -ever, barring terrible circumstances like an above poster stated about his child having body-stalk anomaly- on anyone else. My choice is my choice. Yours is yours. I respectfully choose to respect your choice.
I thought I was pro-choice untill I had an unplanned pregnancy at 16.
I’m now a proud pro-lifer. but that dosen’t I think someone’s horrible if they chose abortion, it’s just what I agree with.
ABORTION FTW!!! No person, government, or creed will dictate to me what grows inside my own uterus. All you pro-choice FUCKS need to take your heads out of your ass and get hip to the fact that a mass of tissue and dividing cells is not a baby and the choice to have children or not should be left to the person who actually has a developed brain. AMIRIGHT???
What’s with people confusing the PC terms? “Pro-choice”, madam, refers to those who side WITH abortion, and “pro-life” are those AGAINST it. If you’re going to make yourself sound like a psychotic feminist, at least attempt to sound like an intelligent psychotic feminist.
I had an unplanned pregnancy. And I didn’t think ONCE about having a choice. If I was mature enough to be having sex, I’m mature enough to grow up and be a mom. Sadly, I lost my unborn baby before my 3rd month.
You think logically and rationally, and due to your wise decision somehow you were rewarded for doing the right thing. I praise people like you, and if only there were more like you this world would be a safer and better place.
This is the longest list of comments ever. Everyone has valid points but from where I stand it’s just another choice women have to make for THEMSELVES. People make choices everyday…if it doesn’t involve you stay out of it. It’s not like they are making the decision to abort your child. This topic is so ridiculous…it’s not yours or the governments choice to decide what a person wants to do with their body or how they want to live their life.
Hear me out real quick. This is the most common pro-choice response I’ve ever heard, and I discuss this issue fairly occasionally. I like that response (very libertarian) for most issues in politics: if it doesn’t concern you, then stay the hell out of it. However, with abortion you have to consider the possibility that the fetus is a living human being. If this is true, its life must be protected as per the 1st Amendment. If you don’t believe a fetus is a human being, then I hope you’ll take time to consider these questions:
1) Is sentience what we should use to define being ‘human’?
2) If so, at what point does human tissue become sentient?
3) If not, how do you define being ‘human’?
4) If a human being has rights as soon as it exits the mother’s birth canal, how much different is it than 5 minutes before, when it was still in the uterus?
5) Given question #4, aren’t most, if not all attempts to define when life begins completely arbitrary?
6) If life begins neither at birth, not at conception, but somewhere else in between, how do you decide at which point a fetus becomes human without ‘playing God’?
I used to be “pro-choice”. However, once you have an ultrasound and see the heart beating, and arms and legs moving, it’s pretty hard to think of the baby as “just a bunch of cells”. Abortion kills that beating heart and moving arms and legs — that’s a living human being that is killed. I’m pro-life now.
The thing many people don’t understand about being pro-choice is that you are not actually “supporting” abortions, you are supporting women’s right to choose whether they want them. There is a reason its not called pro-abortion, there’s nothing pleasant or good about abortion, but in the options it gives women there is. I have friends who are pro-choice and would never even consider an abortion themseleves. Being pro-choice shows you are enlightened enough to be able to support the CHOICE others make amd how they will choose to live their lives.
I consider it similar to the idea of birth control, a women should be able to choose whether she want to sacrifice her life to bring life ino the world, which is a big responsibility, she can do this through abstinence, birth control, or if need-be, abortion. Today, it’s nobody’s business on whether a women is on brith control and it is generally (with some noted religious exceptions) not considered wrong. However, if you think of pregnancy in terms of ‘potential’ (like most pro-life individuals so), then becuase there is potential to conceive a child every time you engage in intercourse, then essentially you are murdering everytime youuse a contraceptive as well. Or one could go even further and say that once a people reaches the age when the can conceive and if they don’t, they are murdering the potential for life.
There is a reason abortion exists, fetusus are not yet people, but children are. A waste of life is seeing that child suffer in poverty or abuse becuase of a bad decision a women made.
” I have friends who are pro-choice and would never even consider an abortion themseleves. Being pro-choice shows you are enlightened enough to be able to support the CHOICE others make amd [sic] how they will choose to live their lives.”
And I’m pro life, but would never interfere with a woman’s right to choose what’s right for her. I guess I’m not as enlightened as you and your friends.
I just want to touch on an angle not really discussed yet…everyone makes mistakes. All of you think back to the times when you have taken a risk and yes been a bit stupid..regardless of what the mistake was, whether it was sleeping with someone without protection or fucking something up at work.You shouldn’t think less of someone who has made a mistake and had to make an awful decision about what to do. We are only human. I am pretty sure that most women do not take this decision lightly. I really agree that you cannot generalise as to whether it is right or not. It depends entirely on the person’s situation, and maybe it’s a selfish thing to do in one person’s eyes, but everyone does selfish things in life. i mean, cheating on a lover is an selfish thing to do as they have to spend months getting over it. A fetus does not have any emotions or consciousness. Unless you are in that situation of thinking, “oh crap I’m pregnant, what should I do?” you cannot say what decision you might make. It’s all very well to say, “oh I’d never do that” but so many external factors come into it. This debate could go on forever, there will never be a solid answer as to whether it is right or wrong. As long as it is a decision that has been considered fully by the individual with acknowledgment to all aspects of the debate then that is of main importance. They have made the right decision IN THEIR EYES for themselves and those around them who will be affected and that is all that matters.
Rape is a crime because it is about not having consent. If a woman doesn’t consent to have someone growing inside her, then they have to leave. Her body, her property, her rules.
Also, an embryo is a watery agglomeration of cells with the potential to be a person, but it isn’t a baby, it is closer to a benign tumor. You get nothing baby-like for quite a long time, and certainly nothing viable.
Once the baby is born, then you can worry about it’s fate, beforehand it’s none of your damn business.
i’ve read through several of these responses and from the sounds of it the majority of these comments are made by men whether you agree or not, and i’ve always been of the opinion that unless you are a woman you have no right to vote on such an issue. you contribute your dna to the process of making a baby, but you’re not the one who has to carry it for 9 months, you’re not the one who’s judged for the rest of your life for getting pregnant before being married, you’re the ones who tend to run away from the responsibility (some of the times, not all just to clarify). point is having to take all the pros and cons into consideration of whether or not a child at the time is something a woman should be allowed to have. my mother had an abortion several years before she had me, her eldest daughter, if she hadn’t had that abortion she’d probably be a single mother because her boyfriend who got her pregnant ran off on her, her family would’ve disowned her, and she never would’ve met my father or had my sister and i. we all have choices in life to make, who’s the government to step in and take that away from us?
“i’ve read through several of these responses and from the sounds of it the majority of these comments are made by men whether you agree or not, and i’ve always been of the opinion that unless you are a woman you have no right to vote on such an issue.”
I’ve never been a victim of rape, therefore I can’t have a (valid) opinion on rape?
“you contribute your dna to the process of making a baby, but you’re not the one who has to carry it for 9 months, you’re not the one who’s judged for the rest of your life for getting pregnant before being married, you’re the ones who tend to run away from the responsibility (some of the times, not all just to clarify). ”
No, men just have to support the child for 18 years. This is enforced by violence (the thread of imprisonment) whether the man chose to have the child or not. You will be judged by your actions whichever you choose. By and large I prefer to ignore the judgments of others. Yeah, some men run away. Just like some women falsely accuse men of rape.
The rest of your comment has nothing to do with reality. You’re just making it up,
Please, the world is populated enough as it is – people should be able to choose if they wish to abort their child or not. It isn’t even a baby up until about 3-4 months; you really want to force a woman who was raped to have the baby of her attacker? You want to force a homeless drug addict woman to give birth to a child that could be born with the same addiction?
I mean I’m not in favour of people getting pregnant left right and center and aborting every child, no no, but people should be able to choose if it is a dire situation and they really cannot afford to have the child.
Fucking natural selection, with a little bit of human intervention.
Good for you. You can have your choice. I didn’t believe it was right for me. One unplanned pregnancy later (while diligently taking the pill), and I still don’t believe it’s for me. So if you want to continue using abortion in place of birth control, I don’t care. But it’s still not for me.
A fetus is not a Human, and it does do harm to the carrier. The fetus takes all nutrients for itself and leaves nothing for the carrier. A fetus is, as a definition, a Parasite. I am pro-choice, however I would prefer women to choose life it is her choice. Also, Guys, yes people with dicks, have no right to tell a woman what she should do when pregnant. When you have to carry a person inside you body for more than Nine months and then have it rip your body apart trying to get out and then suck food from your body for the next 6 months to a year! Yes, babies are wonderful but that is the hard, cold truth of pregnancy and fetus (which are NOT infants or Babies or a person.) Also, If a woman is being punished for having sex by having a baby then the man need to have his tubes tied, pass kidney stones for the next nine months or castration. it takes two to tango; she did not do it alone.
What do you mean men cant comment? What if for example a girl pokes a hole in a condom, or lies about the pill or even saves some of his semen to get pregnant and gets herself knocked up with the child of a man who didn’t want one. Fuck you if you say I cant vote for pro choice, that man now has 9 lbs ball and chain that will cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next 18 years and could in fact ruin HIS life as well. Not only this a man has NO say in with things as they are. Leave your sexist bullshit at the door, men should be able to comment too.
i bet you one unplanned pregnancy that i would accept the consequences of my actions and try doing what’s best for the kid, rather than what’s best for me.
I am adopted. My mother chose to have me, and my family chose to raise me. For that I am thankful.
I have had an abortion, and would never have another one, not because I think they are ‘wrong’ but because when I had the first one, I was at a TOTALLY different place in my life. Now I can afford to have a child and not resent it. In fact, I have four, and will continue to have them as long as it suits me and my husband.
And I will never judge anyone who chooses the best thing for their life.
There is an old hip hop group called Digable Planets who made a song in 1994 called “La Femme Fetal” (not at typ0). Whatever you feel personally about abortion, check the song out. It makes some valid points. My favorite line goes:”Pro-lifers need to dig themselves, because life doesn’t stop after birth, and for a child born to the unprepared, it might even just get worse.”
I’ll bet you one planned abortion that you are secretly pro-life. Most women who have an abortion suffer from depression from the loose of life they just aborted. A little secret most abortion clinics do not want you to know.
Considering they offer counselling specifically for people having an abortion, I’m pretty sure they don’t try to hide that. Abortion clinics don’t pretend that abortion is a simple and quick decision. There are no qualms about it being a tough choice and a life changing thing. However, ultimately, one needs to decide which would be the best choice. Not everyone is fit to raise a child. My father once watched a woman give birth in her 3rd month of pregnancy, she was so drunk she didn’t even remember giving birth. The baby came out horribly disfigured, he described it as looking like “taking a Mr. Potato Head and rearranging his features.” The baby, fortunately, died. Some babies would be better off, and the suicide rates among foster children can only attest to that.
People May Have A Different View on Aborting a Baby if You Had One. I Had My Daughter at 17 And the Mother Wanted to Abort her My Mother And Her Mother Told Her To Keep The Baby, And So We Did. The Child Has Changed My Life So Much I Love Her With All My Heart. Just Because You Dont Think You Can Support A Child, Sometimes You May Surprise Yourself.
I bet you if you were faced with terrorist threat to your wife or child that you are secretly a murderer. You see, you have to look at the context. Jackass.
more importantly, a womans decision is a womans decison. People have no right to judge. Plus, isnt it against the bible to judge others for their actions? abortions dont make you a bad person. There are special circumstances for everything. It also depends on how far along you are. I dont believe in anything past 3 months.
Being pro-life is fine, unless you attempt to change the freedoms of others because of your personal beliefs.
If a large percentage of this country believed we shouldn’t be able to own dogs (I’m sure those crazies are out there) I don’t believe it should effect my freedom to own a dog. They don’t think we should own dogs? Fine, YOU don’t own a dog. This is a country free enough for you to have your own religion, AND speak your mind, so now you can tolerate me exercising my own freedoms.
A fetus isn’t even a human, it has the ability to become a person in time, but the fetus is nothing more than a parasite since it can hardly survive without getting what it needs from the mother. Even if the fetus has the right to life, it does not necessarily have the right to use the mother’s body. It is a woman’s own body, and if she does not wish to share it then she shouldn’t have to.
Look its not really murder of a person, since a fetus is not really a person yet. Many abortions I’m sure take place before a real nervous system even forms preventing that mass of cells from becoming an individual. For all your emotions and thoughts they only exist and make you “sentient” because of your neural network. So to speak with a developped nervous system they AREN’T a person yet, just a lump of cells, and even then you’d have to wait for cephalization (a head forming). After a certain point in the pregnancy I would conisder it murder, but say first month MAYBE first two months. no its not
For all of you who are pro life. What happens when some girl gets raped. Should she have to sacrifice 9 months of her life( assuming she only has the baby then puts it up for adoption) and go through the pain that is child birth? Not to mention medical bills that the couple could have as a result. Its easy to have an opinion on something until you are faced with a extremely difficult situation. Life isn’t always black and white and many of you who claim you would “never have an abortion” very well might if you had an unplanned pregnancy and were not yet ready to be a parent or any other number of circumstances.
Hey! Sure it’s been said before, but does someone getting an abortion affect you AT ALL in ANY way?
No.
Does someone killing a human being already “alive” affect you? It could.
Does someone doing drugs affect you? It could.
The list goes on.
Having an abortion only affects the female and the male who were involved. That’s it. You could argue that it affects the fetus, but it doesn’t matter because the fetus has yet to affect anyone but those who created it.
If she is a good person, the young lady would be more likely to discover that she is pro-life before she decides to kill her own baby.
You guys were fetuses once. You were not aborted, so you are here.
I’m glad I was not aborted. But I’m event more glad that my mother wanted to have me when she decided to get pregnant.
my mom made a CHOICE it just so happens I came from it
I think she made the wrong CHOICE.
amen to that.
my mom had a miss charge and a abortion..i could of had another brother :'( the abortion…we didn’t even know
And I think you are a typical liberal who turns to personal attacks without a valid argument! The world would be a much better place without ignorant people like Frank here. Agree?
My mom chose to make tacos for dinner. What’s your point?
I’m also glad I wasn’t hit by a bus yesterday, so here I am. I’m glad no one chose to murder me in my sleep last night. Being glad you’re not aborted is redundant. You weren’t. If you were, you wouldn’t have an opinion on the matter. Comparing abortion to murder is as valid as saying ‘if we were meant to fly we’d have wings.’ Our intellect and technology have evolved – so, therefore, has our humanity. Therefore we have choice.
Yes, we have a choice. I can choose to murder a random stranger on the street. It’s still murder. The only difference between that and abortion is that abortion is legal.
Do you even understand logic?
Huh?
Making a determination that getting hit by a bus is not murder (or perhaps is involuntary manslaughter) is the same as a moral judgment on terminating fetal cellular self-replication is also not murder (or justifiable whatever).
At 5 weeks, the fetal mass of tissue you refer to, is self replicating, has a rudimentary nervous systems that causes a simple heart to beat, and it has human DNA. Scientifically it is life I view it as a moralistic choice of convenience by small-minded people, who could put the child up for adoption.
Putting up a child for adoption can be a fate FAR worse than death could ever be. So many of my family members have grown up in that system(mother included) it is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful, putting the kid up for adoption is the WORST possible choice actually. It’s cruel.
Excellent points, all. The only problem is that they are all completely irrelevant.
I’m the youngest of too many children in my family, and I’ve had a pretty heavy pile of existential depression generally just always on top of me. If I’d been aborted, logic dictates I couldn’t be “happy” about it, of course. However, I most certainly would not be crushingly sad.
I suppose I’d just appreciate it if all pro-lifers would hear the pissed off voices of the unwanted children who’d rather not have been born.
We say “fuck off.”
But if you had been aborted it would make no difference to you, as you wouldn’t be here to regret it…
This is for Anonymous September 22, 2011 at 6:45 PM
Putting up a child for adoption can be a fate FAR worse than death could ever be. So many of my family members have grown up in that system(mother included) it is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful, putting the kid up for adoption is the WORST possible choice actually. It’s cruel.
Having 3 beautiful cousins who were adopted and would probably be dead if they had not been, I have to disagree with you. Being adopted was the best possible thing for them and gave my Aunt and Uncle the opportunity to have children since she could not bear children naturally. Are there bad adoptive families? I’m sure there are. However there are bad biological families as well. All the children I have ever met who have been adopted have wonderful lives and love their families very much. I’m sorry your family has had a bad experience with adoption.
I wish I was aborted, so I wouldn’t have to read this shit.
I wish I were aborted
I bet you one women’s clinic, the judgmental society we live in, and the closed minded people running our government that you’re right. I would never in a million years get an abortion myself; however, I do not have the right to tell you what to do and am in no position to judge the decisions of others.
I cannot agree more
This is, of course, like saying that we have no right to judge a wife beater or a murderer.
If we were not meant to make judgements, we would not have been given our intellects.
This is like saying we should abolish all our laws on murder, theft, rape, etc. because “I’m in no position to judge.”
I agree about the double standard, but abortion has been around for ages and if abortion wasn’t legal, women would go ahead and get them anyways – just in extremely unsafe ways (ex: behind the local 7-eleven). Rather than making it completely illegal, the procedure should be paid for by the woman requesting the procedure and not by tax payers in general (unless it’s an extenuating circumstance (rape victims, or if the mother’s health is at risk – though that’s still a grey area for me and should instead, perhaps, be covered by health insurance anyways…). In a perfect world, I’d say outlaw it. But this isn’t a perfect world. Abortions would just turn into what street drugs are right now and then there would be even MORE problems. Can you imagine an “abortion dealer” sitting outside a GYN clinic asking passing pregnant women if they want an abortion (yea a tad melodramatic, but I think you catch my drift)?
In a perfect world women would always want their babies. But again, not the reality.
Legalizing anything would allow society to make it more appealing and more abundant. Drugs, prostitution, etc. Just because somebody really wants to something wrong and unsafe, doesn’t mean we should make it safer and legal. If you look at abortion as killing an innocent human beings, then the risk you take in getting one should be great. If a person tried to kill me, they should understand that they’re taking a serious risk of me hurting them, or possibly killing them. Just because a person finds me inconvenient to be around shouldn’t give them the right to kill me, or make it easier to kill me.
I guess this is why we have a problem, because i don’t look at is as “abortion is killing innocent human beings.” i see it as stopping a mass of cells from growing any further. yes, sure it is human dna and yes potentially it could be person. but its not. this fetus is not of its own, its not yet a human BEING. your example of someone trying to kill you is flawed. you are a being, with thoughts and will and a connection to the outside.
If wife beating wasn’t legal men would do it anyway, just in extremely unsafe ways (ex: behind the local 7-11.) If mugging were illegal muggers would still do it anyway, just in extremely blah blah blah. Legal and illegal are not functions of safety only. There IS a higher moral law than safety, society, progress and even “morality.” Besides, even in “safe” abortions one person always dies.
“higher moral law than morality”? Um, paradox?
Murder, rape and theft have been around forever too. Such businesses are often conducted in back alleys or someplace not in the open. I don’t hear anyone saying we should legalize those activities.
Amen!!
Innocent babies go right to heaven thought right? Shouldn’t we all abort for their sake? I jest, but physiologically, a fetus is as much of a “living” creature as a plant, with no consciousness or capabilities, and unless you have never stepped on a blade of grass or eaten a salad then you are equivocally as guilty as someone who gets an abortion for destroying the same level of conscious life.(obviously i don’t think either of these things should cause great guilt) abortion means interrupting the process of building the organism that will one day become a human being, not just potential, if we are counting potential as full human beings, then there are children that could be born all the time if men could just purchase women or force them into sex, and anyone who believed differently must believe in the deaths of poor babies who didn’t get to live bullshit lives listening to stupid people that aren’t really satisfied with their own lives try to tell them how they should live. It’s ridiculous, really, you can’t murder something that hasn’t started living, people get so silly with words like murder so they can sound important or severe…it’s cliche, and it doesn’t make sense, and I really wish those people would get a new bit. If you start telling people they can or can’t do certain things with their own bodies and choices(which a fetus is still just a part of the mother) then you’re just around the corner from a police state where a bunch of people are telling you how to raise your kids and what to believe in and what is right and wrong instead of understanding for itself and utilizing your rights. If you want that, there are alot of other more dogmatic countries that support your kind of bigoted idiocy…oh wait, no that’s here in America…I can’t wait till your ignorance dies out in the face of the semantic web and my grandchildren will laugh when I tell them stories of how stupid and self-righteous people used to be even when they knew very little.
i like this alot every word was my thoughts but more fancy lol
If by ‘fancy’ you mean unreadable, or something that barely resembles English. Cells are living by definition. The argument is not over whether or not a fetus is living. That’s not even debatable. The argument is whether or not they are human (pay attention in biology. Fetuses are human), specifically, whether or not they are as human as you.
And so the question must be asked, Lara. Why would you not in a million years get an abortion if you think it is ok for others to have one? What would stop you??
i am not Lara and not speaking for her, but me personally ” ” I would never in a million years get an abortion myself; however, I do not have the right to tell you what to do and am in no position to judge the decisions of others.”” i feel the same. it is my CHOICE to keep it… it is another woman’s CHOICE if she doesn’t!! i feel like if i ended up pregnant i could handle it. that is what would probably stop me from an abortion; that’s besides the point anyway! I can’t, and wont, or force her to do anything- whether its good or bad or whatever, its up to her to deal with her decision.
I live in Nambia, a developing country with an unemployment rate of 50%. Abortion is illegal. Young impoverished woman who find themselves giving birth to children they cannot support are resorting to a far more horrific solution. Baby dumping. Though I cannot speak for them, I am pretty certain that if they were given the choice, they would take it.
I was aborted as a fetus and I turned out ok.
This is not a matter of guilt. Manipulation of the “young lady” by urging her to take your side by using obscene phrases is not a decision.
And yet, you’re suggesting she should have the choice, but choose to be pro life? Should the legal decision be left to the mothers, only if they choose life?
Everytime anyone wacks off or has protected sex potential “babies” are killed (where do you wanna draw the line?) , are you against that aswell? Just one senaro here…What about people who get pregnant who can’t afford to take care of them self let alone raise a child. Having a child is a privilege like owning a house. The bank won’t (shouldn’t)give you a loan to a house you can’t pay the bills. And it should be the same for having a child.
Again, pay attention in biology class. Semen and eggs are haploids, which means they each only have half the DNA required to make a human being. Once they conjoin into a single cell, that cell has complete human DNA.
Also, having a baby is not a luxury for the wealthy. I hear there are lots of people reproducing in 3rd world countries. It’s easy for you in your 1st world bubble to think that children can only be happy and healthy with material wealth. If you think being born amongst the poor in places like America, with all its welfare programs for parents, is a crime against humanity, then you have a rude awakening in front of you if you ever decide to go someplace where people haven’t forgotten to live with less.
Before you go on about people in the third world being happy with less, see my comment above. Just saying. Maybe before you berate others for their lack of knowledge, you should do a little research first.
Hitler was not aborted.
12 million Jews dead.
99.9999% of the time it is common knowledge that if you stick a cock in a pussy and allow it to ejaculate in there, that the possibility of becoming pregnant exists, THEREFORE, there are no unplanned pregnancies when you choose to engage ins a sexual act that is known to cause pregnancy. Condoms break, the pill is 99% effective not 100%, timing method doesn’t work, yes, he will cum in you, don’t think he won’t lie about that.
Pro-choice is pro-murder.
I suppose rape or being inebriated in any way at all isn’t figuring into this story much. And that’s kind’ve besides the point of the cartoon anyway, seeing as it is saying that many women hold themselves to a standard that they are incapable of holding themselves to. I actually talked about this in an essay for my bio-ethics class.
Pretty much the pro-life argument is as follows:
1. It is wrong to kill an innocent person.
2. A fetus is an innocent person.
Conclusion: It is wrong to kill a fetus.
Reasonable, except that the argument assumes that a fetus is a person, which it is not. A person, from an ethical standpoint, is different from a human being. A human being is simply one who is biologically human, whereas a person is a being with ethical privileges and responsibilities.
For example, it’d be wrong to torture or kill an alien of similar intelligence to us because it retains it’s personhood through things like self-awareness, a desire to live, consciousness, ability to feel pain, etc. However, a fetus, though biologically human, possesses none of the qualities that give us personhood. So then you have to change the argument that to:
1. It is wrong to kill innocent persons.
2. A fetus is a potential innocent person.
Conclusion: It is wrong to kill a fetus.
However, this fails because 2 does not follow 1, as potential persons and persons are very different. If you attempt to change 1 to “It is wrong to kill potential innocent persons” that is logically unsound. That’d be like saying it’s okay to kill any human because they are potentially mass murderers.
There’s a couple of other angles on this but I’m tired and I want to eat pizza and play starcraft 2.
Actually, our argument is not that potential innocent persons should not be killed, but that innocent human beings should not be killed.
According to your own argument, a human being is simply one who is biologically human, and a fetus is not only biologically human but is also innocent because it has done nothing to hurt anyone.
So, hmm, I do believe that the pro-life movement IS logically sound.
Why don’t we care more about what our own individual person is doing than what others are doing to themselves, especially when it doesn’t affect us. Oh wait that would be reasonable.
You probably never went to elementary school because reading comprehension isn’t your forte, sir. A fetus is a parasite until it’s actually born, like cancer. Especially in severe cases of genetic diseases. Nope, let the mother give birth to this child, to have it inevitably die a couple months later. Yay she’s traumatized and mentally unstable now, probably fired and without a job, or behind in school! Yay… buttheads.
There is actually quite a bit of argument as to whether or not a fetus is human, but to say it is a parasite is so ridiculous that I can’t help but wonder if you’re trolling. A fetus IS biologically human before it is born because it has brain function and human parts. Advocates on both sides can agree that it shares the biology of a human.
Your comparison of a fetus to cancer shows that your posts are indeed true to your username. (Because reading comprehension isn’t your forte, this means that you’re a doofus just like your username says)
While I wouldn’t compare the parasitic relationship between a person and cancer to that of the relationship between a mother and fetus, the fetus is still a parasite. The fetus gains nutrient and oxygen for growth and metabolic function through the life-support system that the mother’s body provides. Without this life-support system, the fetus would not survive. The fetus is not providing any nutrient or direct benefit to the mother (outside of potential psychological benefit) and is plainly taking from that of the mother. Simply, the fetus is taking nutrient without providing any to the mother, the host.
do you even understand basic biological concepts? the definition of a parasite is an organism which sequesters nutrients and causes damage to its host, therefore a fetus is a parasite!
Well a fetus is like a parasite in the sense that it can only live by feeding off of the mother. Like a flea.
I care very much what another person is doing if it’s morally wrong. Did you get pissed off when the Penn St. scandal broke, even though you weren’t offended? I sure as hell did.
Whoops, I accidentally posted as anon earlier because I was on my other computer, but it’s still me and I’m back with a rebuttal after all this time. I’d like to say right off the bat that I respect your opinion and your argument analysis isn’t that bad, so props for that. Anyway, just know that the following isn’t meant to be a personal attack, because I know that these things can easily turn into flame wars and then nothing gets accomplished. I’d rather this just be two gentlemanly (or whatever you may be, i’m just speaking demographics here 😉 ) intellectuals arguing two VERY valid points.
Anyway, lets see if my bioethics class prepared me sufficiently…
Your new argument is as follows:
1. It is wrong to kill innocent human beings.
2. A fetus is an innocent human being.
Conclusion: It is wrong to kill a fetus.
Well then you go into whether or not simply being a “human being” biologically speaking gives you the right to live. For example, take a person in a coma that is draining on the limited resources of a family. The doctors say that it is incredibly unlikely that the person will ever wake up and in the meantime, their health insurance will not cover it and they will soon be thrown into massive debt, have their house seized etc. until they run out money entirely and he is taken off life support for lack of payment of the bill. Now. The question here is whether or not it is okay to let the person pass away? The answer is obviously yes, once the money runs out he’s going to die anyway and in the meantime we can stop his family’s lives from being destroyed by debt.
Okay, so now we can apply what we’ve learned to abortion. The human being in this case, the fetus, is a drain on the woman carrying the fetus, and will become a MASSIVE drain monetarily and socially in the future. Now the question that we have posed is whether or not being biologically human and innocent alone requires that we preserve you no matter what. Well, we have already come to the conclusion that this is false.
Another point can be made here as well: Is the fetus even what we can call a biological human? Because skin cells and sperm cells also possess human DNA and possess our biological structure etc. So at what point do we consider that little cluster of cells a “human being”. The answer, most pro-lifers suggest, is when the sperm and the egg come together to form a gamete. Okay, that makes sense at some level, if we were to then properly care for it at that stage, it would potentially develop into a full person. However, there are some issues with this. First is that the gamete still has none of the functions that make us a “human being” it has neither fingers nor limbs nor a brain… it’s just a mass of cells. In fact there’s been studies that for the first few weeks it is nearly impossible from a physical perspective to differentiate between a human fetus and that of a chicken or a cow. It has neither organs nor brain tissue as we said.
Whether or not you argue that it is wrong to kill persons or innocent human beings, the argument is still unsound because a fetus applies to neither.
A few more points that I would like to point out:
1. It is interesting to me that you would say that the fetus is innocent, when the pro-life movement is made up of largely by the dogmatically religious, and many Christians believe that we are born with original sin. Basically, that the fetus isn’t innocent. I don’t agree with this, just something to mull over while you drink your gin.
2. It is interesting to me that you value the life of something that cannot feel pain, or have valuable memories that will be expunged, or valuable connections or emotional attachment that will be severed, more than that of a girl who likely has all these things and more.
3. The pro-life argument is that innocent persons should not be killed. This is because that is an ethical argument that wasn’t only constructed for the defense of pro-lifers but also for the defense of life in general. The differentiation between human beings a persons was created to prevent things such as animal cruelty or the capture of intelligent animals like dolphins or monkeys.
Feel free to argue another angle or prove your point further! Cheers, friend.
Please allow me to interject my thoughts into your debate Matt. I do appreciate your desire to discuss and not argue. Heres just some food for thought to inject into your discussion with the others.
1. A human is defined by its DNA not what it looks like. So at the point of conception the embryo has human DNA, ipso facto, it is human. I don’t care if it looks like a fish. Your point about sperm having DNA yet isnt human is logical so I will add to this although I dont think you really disagree that it is human at this stage. That would be unreasonable. The addition is ‘direction.’ A female egg fertilized with male sperm directs a chain reaction that in most case will develop into a viable mature human and nothing else. An embryo is simply a stage in that development. A 12 year old doesn’t have tits but you wouldn’t say shes not a human female would you? 🙂
2. Most abortion discussions degrade to discussions about rape, incest or the death of a mother and in some cases the look of an embryo. These are deflections as they only account for less than 5% of the total abortions. They are side issues that should only be discussed after agreement has been reached on the other 95% or the discussion is bound for failure.
3. Other than “the morning after” pill, there have been no abortions performed before that baby had a heart beat.
4. Your “pulling the plug” analogy is flawed therefore should be discarded. In your analogy you compare a person whos body is trying to die to a child in the womb whos body is trying to live. We interject in that natural course to keep one of them alive and the other we are trying to kill. A big difference.
5. I disagree on your definition of personhood. Personhood is not an ethical designation it is a political designation.
Well I guess thats enough. Just wanted to put my two cents in. I dont’ mean to interrupt your conversation with others so I’m not expecting a reply.
woah woah WOAH!
so, you’re telling me that, sperm is human? its alive!? quick, everyone stop using condoms/pulling out! because by preventing the creation of human life you are committing murder!
I would not call a 12 year old a woman. Cracking an egg open and mixing it into the brownies is not the same as cutting a chicken open and mixing it into the brownies. The stage of development matters, because it is a parasitic relationship. If there were a way to remove fetuses from the uterus without harming them, and allow their mothers to give them up for adoption at that point, I would be more prone to have a ‘ban all abortion’ talk. But there isn’t. Until viability, the fetus’s only manner of survival is through the human host.
I agree with you but i have one correction sperm and egg cells are the gametes and they form a zygote when they join together.
The majority of Christian sects do not believe in the dogma of original sin. And one can be pro-life without using the faintest whiff of religion in their arguments.
Skin cells are biologically human. By your definition, nicking yourself while shaving is murder.
Yes, but skin cells are a dependent organism, in that it does not exist as an individual. A fetus is by definition an independent organism that exists separately from the host body.
Now, that doesn’t mean it is completely independent of the mother, since that would be an incredibly stupid claim. I’m speaking strictly in biological terms here.
I’m not hating, Chaz. I realize your talking about potential when you’re saying a fetus is an independent organism, but a fetus has a 50/50 chance of survival outside the womb at 24 weeks (roughly two-thirds term), and that is with the most intense, involved, dedicated medical care that technology and the world can provide us, as well as months of living in an isolated chamber with breathing and eating taken care of for the fetus. Before then, chances of survival outside the womb are negligible. This makes a fetus by definition UTTERLY dependent upon another organism, biologically and in every other way.
Let’s see… what about if attempting to carry the baby to term will kill the mother? Are you suggesting it’s right to hold this unborn fetus’s life above that of the mother when she is likely just as innocent? That seems pretty wrong to me.
I don’t believe I’ve met a pro-lifer that thinks that personally, but I’m sure they exist. That being said, the majority of pro-lifers do allow for shades of grey, like ectopic pregnancies, because the fetus would not have survived. That being said, I can’t think of any medical situation in which you would have to choose between a fetus that is capable of surviving outside of the mother, and the mother. Doctors take an oath to do no harm. Any doctor that doesn’t attempt to save both child and mother in a situation where either one of them could survive has no right practicing medicine. Certainly not in this day of advanced medicine. That entire argument is moot.
yes but if she is too young or not ready to raise a child, the child will suffer most
adoption works
Sometimes yes. But not always. Healthy white babies are in high demand and are easily adopted. If the baby isn’t white or isn’t healthy (e.g crack babies, or children with physical or mental handicaps) it’s more difficult.
It’s also worth pointing out that there are pregnancies that can not produce a living child and may also kill the mother (ectopic pregnancies being only one). Would you really expect a woman to carry a child for 9 months knowing it will be born dead?
if the fetus is dead in the womb then it wouldn’t be murder….
They don’t always die it in the womb, they die when their umbilical cord is cut. There are a great many defects that end up working like that.
Sorry, but your argument that an ectopic pregnancy is present and the mother is knowingly carrying the deceased child is deeply flawed. When this occurs and doctors are aware, they do not preform an abortion. Minilaparotomy and Laparoscopy are procedures that remove the ectopic pregnancy and are in no way related to an abortion. Please get your facts straight. Also, an abortion can further result in medical complications later in life; the risk of ectopic pregnancies doubles, and the chance of a miscarriage and pelvic inflammatory disease also increases.
Whoa, whoa whoa. Removing an ectopic pregnancy is removing a pregnancy. Removing a pregnancy is abortion. In an ectopic pregnancy, the fetus is very much alive, just implanted somewhere other than the uterus which is life-threatening for the woman carrying it.
And I really don’t hate to break it to you, but abortion is one of the safest medical procedures in the world. All of those risks you mentioned are merely lies made up by the anti-choicers to scare women away from having this extremely safe medical procedure.
what if i rape you, how would you feel? would you wanna get rid of the thing or not?
I love how people bring rape into this argument so flippantly. I was raped, and my daughter is the best thing that’s ever happened to me. Though the circumstances of her conception are horrible, it in no way devalues her worth as a person. So arguing that rape babies should be aborted is ignorant.
Thank you, on behalf of all of us who came into the world that way. I will always be grateful my mother had the courage to bring me into this world and the wisdom to know (at sixteen) that she was REALLY not ready for motherhood. My adoptive family, my husband and my children beg to differ with all y’all who think rape babies don’t deserve a chance at life. Just cause “daddy” was a (series of expletives deleted) doesn’t mean baby will be.
Your mom was a slut, don’t lie.
It’s not that rape babies /must/ be aborted, it is that the mother, after being in a situation where all control was taken from her, should have the choice whether to carry the rapist’s child. It could be a healing experience like it was for you. Or it could be an incredibly damaging experience, that causes permanent harm to the woman and she forever regrets and reviles the child for the memory it causes her to relive.
I didn’t get rid of mine. He isn’t a thing. He’s a child, and he had no control over who fathered him.
Then you must be pro sex education, right?
Not all pro-life advocates are anti-sex education. That is an obnoxious claim. Perhaps if we actually taught kids about the consequences of sex, and how to use birth control, fewer of them would be making such a life-altering decision when they aren’t even old enough to choose a president.
I think abortion is wrong but not everything fits into a neat little package. I believe in the rights of the mother but also the unborn child.
People having sex without a condom is never a planned pregnancy just b/c you might get pregnant. I think you’re demogauging it.
it’s not just black and white. sometimes what seems wrong is what’s right, because the situation entitles something bad be done to stop something worse. i’ve had friends in adoption homes, its awful there, and i’ve met tons of people who’s lives were set back horribly to keep a child when they werent ready, and their children suffered because of it, as well as them. the general rule of thumb i have is that if i can support a child financially without being poor, i have to do it, and if i have one when i cant, i would get an abortion. rape is different though, if you’re raped, it isnt your own fault that this happened, and its entirely up to you, i personally wouldnt keep it, because it’s not my own irrisponsability that cause it.
Is it fair to bring a child into an abusive relationship? Or what about a pregnant drug addict? What if a woman isn’t even sure who her baby daddy is? It’s not a perfect world, and it’s not fair to say “Oh well you know the consequences so don’t do it.” People are going to do it anyway! Plus, can we really afford to publicly fund all these orphanages that would be a result of banning abortion?
I have babies and I have never had an abortion, although when I was young I would have considered having one if I did happen to get pregnant. I can understand that people are in different situations and it’s none of my business what they chose to do in their spare time and the choices they make.
People will always be put into bad situations, and if this were a perfect world you could say “ohhh you should’ve done it like this _______ .” But, bad things happen to good people. We all make mistakes, and if someone feels that bringing a baby into this world isn’t the right thing to do, that is there choice. It’s not a decision that is EVER taken lightly. You can make us sound like baby killers, but having a baby or getting an abortion changes you forever.
People will always be getting abortions if it’s legal or not. Abortions will ALWAYS be done. There will always be a black market, and people will take unsafe measures to be rid of a fetus. Would it not be ‘more ethical’ to provide abortions in a safe, clean environment? Do you really want more people (women) to risk the danger of contracting a serious infection or even death from receiving an ‘underground’ abortion? Then they will just end up back in the healthcare system (if you are Canadian) costing you more tax dollars? (not that abortions are free here).
And as I always say, there is how many billions of people out there? Does the Mother Earth really need more? It’s better to destroy life before they know they have it, than to destroy someone who already knows what life is.
Or don’t create it to begin with. Legalized abortion in a 1st world country is not the way to reduce overpopulation. Educating women in 3rd world countries and giving them the freedom to start a career and marry when and whom they choose is the single most effective way to stall the birthrate.
What exactly would the U.S get out of the pro-life agenda being pushed through? Aborations made illegal? Well hate to break it to you, that’s not going to stop abortions.As some one from Brazil, the most catholic nation in the world that strictly bans abortion, I can tell you I know more Brazilians that have had abortions then Americans. Just instead of doing in in safe sterile doctors office’s, they throw themselves down stairs, do large amounts of drugs, or take “remedies” (basically posionous herbs) to cause miscarriages. Or they get themselves into debt paying unqualified black market “doctors” to give them abortions. Or they commit suicide, killing 2 “innocent people”. Is that any better?
Don’t you dare say Pro-choice is pro-murder. I HATE the idea of abortions. But I’m not going to allow my personal ideology to affect a rational policy decision. You’re just as pro-murder as I am, only you want it swept under the rug where you won’t hear about it, so you can feel better about yourself. Really fucking noble.
I am also Brazilian. The person above is absolutely right. Half of the women i know have had abortions. It will always be done regardless of being legal or not.
Well, I am not Brazilian, but I have to agree here. When a woman is denied an abortion that she desperately feels she needs, TWO lives are destroyed!
To me, both pro-choice and pro-life stances are extreme simplistic positions. I cannot be 100% pro-life because there are morally acceptable situations when I can kill another person – in self defense or war, for example. But in most situations I have the moral responsibility to respect the other person’s right to live.
I cannot be 100% pro-choice because I believe that the other person’s right to live should not be a matter of my choice. Especially when the other person or life form is not in a position to defend against a threat. So
I would gladly call myself a pro-lifer, except that I cannot see myself hanging out with the politically charged proponents of pro-life who are so intensely emotional about the issue that they would gladly destroy anyone who disagrees with their position that all life is sacred.
Wow MKhan … that was the most libertarian answer ever. I’m totally copying and pasting what you said so that I can further my libertarian goals.
Seriously dude, thank you.
Agreed, I lean pro-life strongly. I believe in individual rights, including the rights of unborn babies to life. In some cases abortion is reasonable and not morally objectionable. In the majority of others it is selfish and violates the unborn’s basic rights. A poster above made the implication that aborting a baby conceived when “inebriated” was rational, which is a sickening precedent. It isn’t justifiable to use intoxication as an excuse for other acts, legally.
I’m sorry, but you can’t be pro-life and also claim to believe in individual rights. By law, a fetus isn’t a person. I personally lean more toward pro-choice for this reason. I don’t like that a woman can kill a POTENTIAL life, but I don’t think that my beliefs should outweigh their right to choose.
That’s not “morally acceptable, ” it is “socially acceptable.” It is socially acceptable to kill people in war. Morally, we’d work it out some other way.
You are a rockstar, sir.
First off – it is incorrect to called it ‘pro-life’. Life applies to everything that lives and not just humans. If people truly respected life – they wouldn’t be killing and eating animals let alone eating calves or other ‘younglings’ as delicacies.
Pro choice isn’t pro murder as this very intelligent gentleman says above with his cock & bull story. One of the arguments is about aborting a fetus in a situation where a girl gets raped and does not wish to have a child. Agreed that there is a chance for a pro-choice law to be abused (like everything else in our legal system) but doesn’t mean that society has to make a choice for every individual – as a blanket rule.
I agree that pro-life is a bad name for it, but so is pro-choice for that particular position in the debate, because it implies that everyone involved has a say in the matter, when it’s almost always the woman’s decision alone. Let’s get down to it and call the pro-abortion and anti-abortion.
Furthermore, killing animals and consuming their flesh is a normal product of human evolution. We are omnivores. We kill, we eat. As I’ve stated elsewhere, any abortion that is not a natural one violates the principles of natural selection.
killing and eating an animal is just as much a choice as taking an abortion has been. And women have taken abortions for ages, using herbs that were known for those properties etc, and can also be considered a normal product of human evolution. I really don’t see the difference that you claim there is.
Funny, because “Jane Roe” from Roe V. Wade, who is essentially the mother of legal abortion, is now pro-life and regrets her abortion.
But there’s not gonna be a “I’ll bet you after one abortion you won’t be able to forgive yourself” comic on here, now is there?
Please get your facts right. “Jane Roe” did not have an abortion. She gave birth during the trial.
Well, the truth is that pro-choice is the right scenario. How can you expect a woman to carry a child that is the result of rape to full term? It would be a constant reminder of an uncleanliness that she feels. Besides, putting the body through the extreme pregnancy is unfathomable, and the time off needed, well it is not an option for some when accidents do happen, for example teen mothers.
I don’t know but considering the law acknowledges that you are considered a person after your first breath, not before, it seems that abortion will stay legal.
If the basis of analysis is the human fetus, then what does that have to do with whether it is a person? The mother should bear it and put it up for adoption. The unborn child is still an unborn child. This may be very distasteful for some, but then people find many things that are morally correct to be distateful…. and find convenient rationalizations to go ahead with the morally incorrect choice despite the fact that, whether consciously or unconsciously, the persons knows it’s the wrong choice to make.
Also, put it another way…. a rapist made the woman a victim…. but now the woman is going to kill an unborn person and create her own victim… how is that possible the right answer?
Except that morality is subjective. Your morality might not be the same as mine. In the situation of abortion, I along with most people would say that it is immoral. However, where does this stop? You can’t have laws based on religion that not everyone believes in (Im’ just assuming that most of the pro-life arguments here are based on religious beliefs.)
That’s why we have law, to clarify what objective morality should be. Pro-lifers think that to have laws on the books that forbid and punish murder, on one hand and sanctify it on the other, makes no sense. And assuming that everyone who is pro-life is religious is incredibly naive. One can argue the philosophy of the debate without ever bringing religion into the equation. At its core, the debate is philosophical, legal, and biological.
Now that I’m safe, I’m pro-choice.
abort! abort! abort! mission has been compromised!
Who thought so many women would want the government to tell them what they can’t do to their body, so much for women’s rights
There are 7 billion people on the planet. There is no sign of any supernatural being punishing us if this biological prosperity against so much “sin” is to go by. This is counter to the logic of Christian beliefs.
Our success however is clearly impugning upon the rights of MANY other species. Aborting small sacs of chemicals not only ensures a more prosperous future for current humans but represents true spiritual wisdom above the horror of humancentric religious malfeasance.
if you are not one who thinks that a woman shouldn’t be able to make her own decision about whether to keep a baby or not then maybe your mother should have been pro-choice.
don’t be fucking stupid. its not your choice nor does it affect you so leave these women alone.
better to kill one then to have more than two. you rabbit fucking inbred morons need to stop procreating anyways. we have too many people as is and could probably be a better race if we wiped half the people off this planet anyways.
here is an idea. if you have more than 2 kids then drag them outside and shoot them. because its your retarded family genes that thinks the world will be fine if i keep pushing out an over population of idiocy. and we need to put an end to that right now.
so how about you go evaluate the damage your big floppy pussy has done to the world before you criticize anyone else about there kids or lack thereof.
signed,
That is one of the most disgusting things I have ever read. I’m sure you’re exaggerating for dramatic effect, but take a step back and try to argue rationally if you’re going to take a stance and quit with the ad hominem.
I agree with you on so many levels. Here in Ireland people walk around with 4, 5 kids!! And you know why (in a LOT of the cases)? Because the government pays you a monthly allowance per kid. How about that?
Ok, we can shoot the extra people, if you volunteer to go first. And your kids first.
Asshole.
if you are not one who thinks that a woman shouldn’t be able to make her own decision about whether to keep a baby or not then maybe your mother should have been pro-choice.
don’t be fucking stupid. its not your choice nor does it affect you so leave these women alone.
better to kill one then to have more than two. you rabbit fucking inbred morons need to stop procreating anyways. we have too many people as is and could probably be a better race if we wiped half the people off this planet anyways.
here is an idea. if you have more than 2 kids then drag them outside and shoot them. because its your retarded family genes that thinks the world will be fine if i keep pushing out an over population of idiocy. and we need to put an end to that right now.
so how about you go evaluate the damage your big floppy pussy has done to the world before you criticize anyone else about there kids or lack thereof.
signed,
FUCK YOU IGNORANT PRICKS.
“FUCK YOU IGNORANT PRICKS.” is your name?
Wow, your mother must have some really bad anger issues.
Looks like mother’s anger issues run in the family…Along with her delusional outlook, inflated ego, and keyboard with no shift key…
my bad. double posted.
oh well. read it twice stupid.
You’re a troll and an idiot.
I believe the scientific term for his ilk is ‘fucktard.’
This basically sums up the pro-choice mind-frame- it is ENTIRELY subjective. Letting that subjectiveness override fact (that life begins at conception- it’s an undebatable fact) and that because the world is forcing lies down the throats of the vulnerable- saying that abortion it isn’t destroying a life, young women are swayed by the illusion of their being a ‘choice’. This made me sigh when I first saw it, but then I read a few of the comments and feel more at peace by the many pro-life comments.
Except it’s not an undebatable fact; in actuality it is completely and totally wrong. In what way does life begin at conception?
(I really wish this wasn’t in a comments thread, cause now I feel like debating.)
Me as well. I have read these for at least 20 minutes and have passed the urge to comment several several times! But to say that the minute sperm touches the egg it is a human/life is just ignorance. If that’s the case then the sperm itself is “life”. It swims to the egg. There is “life” in sperm. …
It’s not human life. It only has half the genetic material required. Retake biology, then try again.
I’ve read a lot of the comments on this post and there are only a few that don’t make me mad.
The one thing I can narrow it down to is RESPONSIBILITY. If you aren’t in the position to raise a child (either economically, physically, or emotionally) then you just aren’t. Yes things change and more importantly PEOPLE change, but what’s important to one person is NOT necessarily important to another. That’s why the CHOICE must be available.
Humans are one of the BILLIONS of organisms on Earth and a single lost fetus is nothing to get so upset about. You can keep asking “WHAT IF he/she grew up to be a president” or “WHAT IF he/she is some kind of reincarnate deity” but none of that can ever mean ANYTHING. Things are what they are and will continue to be so plus or minus a few unintentional pregnancies.
I don’t know about you people, but MY thoughts on human existence are in no way connected to “cover the Earth in humans and their SHIT.”
Main point– Having children is stressful (period) and there are infinite inherent risks, but you can either COPE or NOT. Preferably make up your mind before while you can and don’t pass whatever problems you have on to your kids.
I agree!
Selective CAPITALIZATION really helps YOU to GET your POINT across, HUH?
WRONG.
I’ve had an unplanned pregnancy and am still pro-life!
🙂
Yeah.. You’re an idiot.
She’s an idiot for finding some good in a potentially stressful situation? You’re an asshole with no sense of hope.
Because no one has ever had an accidental pregnancy and carried it to term. Clearly, she is setting a dangerous precedent.
I don’t think anyone should be able to tell another human being what to do or how to think, there decision doesn’t affect you, so why bitch and complain about it?
some people i have talked about abortion to tell me its a sin, yeah so be it, but so is 98% of the things we all do. If its not you personally going through it, back the fuck off, you have no say.
I agree with you. It is not my responsibility to tell other women what to do with their own bodies. If I were to have an unplanned pregnancy, I would want to have the choice to do what I thought was right, regardless of the circumstances. If I think abortion is wrong, then I won’t get one. My point is, I feel that women should have the right to choose. No one should have the right to tell other people what to do with their own bodies, whether it be having sex with a partner of the same biological sex or aborting an unwanted pregnancy.
Right, and the scandal at Penn St. with the pedophile football coach very likely didn’t affect you personally, either. Who are we as a society to tell him where he can and can’t put his dick? …The sort of logic that concludes that if it doesn’t affect you, it doesn’t matter, disturbs me deeply.
Why do people have to argue about this topic every chance they get? We get to choose. That’s the way it is. Deal with it.
We get to choose whether or not to argue. That’s the way it is. Deal with it.
On an actual note, a statement like that is, in actuality, fostering conflict.
Just because you are pro-choice does not automatically mean you anti-life. Besides, don’t you find it funny that most people that are pro-life are also pro-war….hmmmmmm seems very hypocritical….but that’s America for you. Full of hypocrites!!!
There is no such thing as “Pro-war”. NOBODY, not even conservatives, want war. They just approach conflict with violent foreign countries differently.
And there’s no such thing as “pro-abortion”. Nobody *wants* an abortion. There are simply circumstances where one believes one must have one.
You know what else is hypocritical? Anyone who’s ever shed a tear over an abused animal and then turned around and said it’s okay to terminate a pregnancy.
I’m pro-life. I disagree with the death penalty. I dislike animal cruelty. And I would never advocate a war that wasn’t directly self-defense related. Get off your high horse.
You can always make a new one so whatever.
I was aborted
Just so you know, I actually found out I am pregnant, while in the middle of a divorce. I have always been pro-life. Obviously this isn’t the greatest time for me to have a baby. So I am placing the baby. I am now 14 weeks pregnant. So how dare you lower the decent people in the world to your level.
you should think long and hard about keeping a kid, yes it should be the woman’s choice. the choice is not a small one it affects the rest of your life, that’s why it should be a choice! my mom was married they both had good jobs but when the child came along and was disabled he left my mother (he was pro life until he had a disabled child).
Get over yourselves ppl, its ppl like yall that make ppl not want to be Christians in the first place. You all are probably the people who post on your facebook all the time about the Bible and Being more like Jesus, well geuss what Jesus did not judge and only God can judge anyone. Live your own life and let others make their own decisions! If you truly want to reach someones heart it is not by making them feel worthless. Why would anyone want to be a part of something where they’re constantly judged? Always keep this in the back of your head before you jump to judge, no sin is greater then any other, WWJD, and he who hath not sinned cast the first stone.
….what…..
Where did this come from anyway?
I am pro-choice and pro-spelling.
Who are you talking to? I can give you a totally secular argument.
Its wrong it kill another person unless this person is a direct intentional threat to other people.
I think we can all agree with this. So the argument is centered around if an unborn person is a person. Some say as long as it isn’t born yet its not a person others say as long as it isn’t past a certain point in the pregnancy.
I feel we need to be honest with ourselves in that none of us know. None of us know when life starts, when a mass of matter suddenly becomes that glorious this that is life, when that spark suddenly reaches in and a separate person is born. But we do know one thing. When life ends. If there is a question is something is a person or not then yes it is a person.
Yes some random girl having an abortion doesn’t effect me. But neither does a 45yr man doing it with a 13yr boy or a mother that abuses her kids not even a murder in my own city effects me directly. But that’s not the point is it?
The kid is likely to have a hard life? So are all the children in 3rd world countries. Hard times are a part of life.
Rape? Yes it sucks and yes its going to be painful. But again two wrongs don’t make a right. punish the rapist not the child. Though to be fair if anyone has a right to an abortion they do.
The world is getting over populated and needs to be thinned out? To words, You first.
People really need to be educated on other ways to have sex and not get pregnant. The sky is the limit really. I don’t know about funding but I could see a Blowjob class going pretty well in my town 😛
Your original statement, which you claim is incontrovertible, “it’s wrong it kill another person unless this person is a direct intentional threat to other people”, is in direct conflict with your entire pro-life stance.
The fact is, that the growth of an embryo will always act in the same manner and when everything goes to plan, will produce the same end result – one could call this process ‘intentional’ by god or whomever or whatever you believe in. This can be a direct threat to the mother in many circumstances. Financially, ill-prepared mothers can end up poor, possibly homeless or in a variety of horrible situations that are dangerous and a ‘direct threat’ to both herself and the baby, thus qualifying her an exception to your own rule. An emotionally unstable mother may well cause significant harm to herself and the child in such a situation, again qualifying as a ‘direct threat’. There are a thousand more examples: physically, psychologically and so on, so forth. Who can truly objectively draw the line as to the appropriate threat to the mother vs wrongness of killing where it is justifiable for a woman to terminate her pregnancy?
I’ve never been able to understand the narrow-mindedness of such a large group of people, thank whomever that you don’t make the rules in my country.
what is ridiculous about the discourse regarding the abortion issue is this: that no one questions why a woman would want to abort a fetus in the first place. The rightist “because she’s a bad person” is the exact opposite of this substantial questioning and furthermore, a shelter from the difficulties of having empathy that the Christian conception, were it legitimately born of empathy for the suffering, would demand. The leftist “I understand why she would” serves as little more than an apology for a society which demands making the choice between living an independent life and the form of servitude that motherhood has become.
The issue here shouldn’t be whether or not it’s okay for a woman to have an abortion or not, the issue should be “what can we do to change society so that motherhood is a less oppressive institution?” Motherhood, following the economic emancipation of women in relation to men, has become more oppressive in that women are now subjected to the oppression of having to engage in capitalistic relations of production while simultaneously having the traditional burdens of nurturing a family. The economic emancipation of women is hardly freedom at all in capitalistic society. Women absolutely should be emancipated economically, but as they say “no freedom without that of society,” until the beatdown of the average working person that is inherent to capitalism is overcome, motherhood will be an additional burden (which men do not have to suffer) on top of the burden of the work-a-day abstract monotony of everyday economic life.
don’t forget the stigma of the teen mom i dont hear anything bad about the teen dad
abortion is a personal choice, not a political debate. Only your decision is yours to make. What is right for someone else may not be right for you or make you happy, but why does that matter? Truth is, women are going to get abortions and it will continue for many many years, just like it has been around for many years. You are in no position to judge someone else’s personal decision. Everything happens for a reason, it keep our world running in order. This earth can barely provide for 6 billion people. Now imagine if zero of those 6 billion people got abortions. We wouldn’t be able to survive as a species.
Again, murder, war crimes and other wrongs have been around for a long time, too. That doesn’t mean we should throw up our hands as a society and legalize them. According to your logic, if I make the personal decision to run my husband over with my car, no one else has the right to get involved, because it doesn’t involve anyone but him and myself.
And like someone else said, abortion in wealthy nations that have low birthrates to begin with is not going to stop the population from rising. You want to slow population growth? Give every woman in the world at least a high-school level education, and give monetary compensation to people who voluntarily have themselves sterilized.
Think of this from the possible unborn child’s life. If it’s mother keeps it to full term and she doesn’t want it where does it go? To the legal system, and what does the legal system do? Put them into foster care where they will jump from family to family for 18 years. Now, they may get adopted but the market to adopt babies is not that big.
I have seen lives of foster care kids; Most don’t do well in school because of their moving constantly and their lack of motivation, many turn to drugs, alcohol, cutting, and suicide to get away from the pains of living in the system. Plus the psychological damage that is done when the child figures out they were not loved from the moment they were brought in this world.
Sometimes abortions are not only good for the mother but also for the child who will now never go through the hardship of the legal system.
Now I wrote this on my own personal perspective of the topic and I understand that this does not cover every unwanted child but it is just a blanket scenario from what I have seen to foster kids. So I hope that you understand this as well.
Because playing on the moral bankruptcy of scared people stooping the the level of murdering an innocent baby is much better than asking them to display any kind of courage, responsibility, and dignity in living with the consequences of their own decisions.
Right, abortion is magic right? It’s not like the former mother actually thought about it, or is traumatized by her necessary decision. No, instead she has the abortion, and decides have sex with the next guy she sees.
You can’t escape the consequences of your actions; but you should be allowed to choose what actions you take.
Not if it’s murder. Pro-choice is only pro-choice in that the woman gets to choose in a situation that involves at least 3 people: her, the child, and the father. Since the fetus can’t voice its opinion, we should probably assume that it intends to survive unless it comes clawing its way out of her womb.
Living in a country where religion and politics ARE separated, I don’t get why religion has so much influence on politics in the US, as is the case. Doesn’t your constitution specifically state to separate the two?
Reasons why I’m glad religion doesn’t play any role in the public room: We don’t have killings of abortion doctor’s. We don’t have antigay protesters at funerals(If there where they would get arrested for tresspassing a private ceromony) Here religion is considered a private matter, that you keep to yourself. In fact NO European politicians hoping to get elected advertise their religious beliefs in any way. They don’t mention God all the time and they don’t put prayers in their speeches. Why? Because they know, they would loose votes rather than gain votes by doing so. Not even the christian based parties, that we do have, do it. Germany’s Merkel is from “The Christian Democratic Union Party” she NEVER ends a speech with a referrence to God or an “Amen”.
So stop mixing religion and politics. After all religion has always been the biggest single source of evil in history!
You’re assuming the the only people who disagree with abortion are religious.
Bet not.
Meh. Weak argument. I do happen to be pro-choice, but I chose life for my unplanned baby.
My parents decided not to have children until they had been married at least 5 years. My mom got pregnant at 4 years in, so true to the plan they decided they would abort it. Mom was home one day watching a T.V. talk show with some girl who aborted her kid and was sobbing crying about it, really busted up. So she got all bleary eyed and went to my dad begging him to let her keep it. He basically said “Yeah that’s fine lets go for it” and they had their first child. You can probably guess that I’m talking about myself.
I wouldn’t be super pissed off about it if they had never had me. Don’t get me wrong and all, I love life and being alive. I’m not some emo bitch who whines all day and listens to sad music. But I don’t think that dying is the end of our journeys by any means, and I certainly don’t think not being born into this world would put a damper on my journey for a second.
Pro Choice FTW. Get your shit together before bringing kids into the world you can’t take care of.
Oh, sure, if you’re pro-life, you’re automatically a fuckin’ baby-murderer. Oh, sure, you’re automatically a bad person. Jesus Christ, just because pro-life is YOUR choice, doesn’t mean that anything other than your choice is fuckin’ right. Please make time to dislodge your head from your ass. Who the fuck is to say what’s right and what’s wrong anyway? I mean, dammit. If If I want to get a goddamned motherfucking abortion then by all fucking means, I’m going to do it. I don’t know if that’s wrong and I don’t know if that’s right but it doesn’t really matter because IT’S MY CHOICE. I hate people sometimes. Ignorant fucks. Have a fabulously self-righteous, pompous, all-knowing fuckin’ day.
You do realize the term”pro-life” means you’re AGAINST abortion? Your entire post suggest otherwise.
lol. I just wondered the same about that myself.
Resubmit yourself to the nearest educational facility, and then try to make a post that makes sense.
People are by default pro choice, else we´d collect and store every single sperm/egg in our bodies for later use.
After all, wouldn´t we be murderers if we didn´t use them !?
Pro life is a concept for people who just want make themselves look good.
Not Catholics. :B
“…every sperm is saaaacred… every sperm is great! IFFFFF a sperm is waaaaasted God gets quite iraaaate!”
Somewhere, your biology teacher is rocking in a corner with a decanter of gin, wondering how they could have failed you so miserably.
I notice those of you leaving comments are mostly male…hence, your opinions are based on NOTHING, never been raped by a sick Uncle, never had the condom break, and the best of all..Men are disgustingly free from their actions in this matter, you can take off and disregard any responsibilities..any consequences..any unwanted children..women are left cleaning up half of the mess..either grow a pair, or keep your ill-educated feelings to yourselves..and as for you ladies.. the above image is accurate, don’t ever say NEVER..and don’t you ever think for one second you are somehow morally above the woman who made the right decision for HERSELF..not for the sensibilities of others, your judgements are by far the most insulting because this could happen to you.
wow so true
Unfortunately men -are- raped by their sick uncle. And when it happens it tends to be more traumatic because of societal bias. I’m also pretty sure that for every condom that’s broken there’s a man involved. Legally, it’s women who can choose abortion and be “disgustingly free from their actions in this matter, you can take off and disregard any responsibilities..any consequences..any unwanted children”. Conversely, men are left to pay for the mess through the force of law, whether or not they chose to have the child.
Apparently the “choice” is for women only.
What about the guy whose condom breaks and wants to accept responsibility. The guy who wants to raise his child. But his wife doesn’t want a baby so she has an abortion. She can kill his baby without his consent. He has no choice and neither does the baby. How is this right?
actually, most of these posts seem to have been left by anonymous, taking a break from disemboweling scientology.
people calling a bunch of cells that have no features describable as human or even a brain human.
lol fail.
Curse that ridiculous concept of genetics, amairite?
Our first pregnancy resulted in our choice to abort the fetus. We found out around 3 months that the baby my wife was carrying suffered from a rare disorder (not genetic, BTW) called body-stalk anomaly, or sometimes known as limb-body wall complex. Some of the organs were external to the fetus and actually fused to the placental wall. It was impossible for the child to live if we had decided to take the baby to full term. So we opted to abort: For her sake and for the baby’s. And just to clarify for some of the pro-choice folks: It isn’t always just about “her” right to choose: That is a tremendous amount of pressure to put on someone who in such a situation is already in a horrible state. In most cases, a man was responsible for the action just as much as she was, and it is his responsibility to support her though decisions like that. Not because we’re men, but because that is what a relationship is: You both accept the good and the bad when it happens.
Life isn’t always that simple folks. We’ve always been pro-choice, but that was the most difficult decision of our lives. Not a day goes by when I don’t think about it. But we had a choice: Not someone’s religious agenda stomping on our decision. What some of you need (on both sides) is a little empathy. For those of you who are so devoutly against abortion, I don’t think you’ve thought it all the way through. If you think you can really enumerate all of the potential situations where it should be legal for an abortion to be performed, you are delusional. No one knows everything that could potentially happen.
Why don’t you just try helping people who are out of the womb? You’d be amazed at how far that goes to helping those that will be in one.
If you go back and read that last statement, you might find it to be rather arrogant to assume that someone who is pro-life only cares about people up until they’re born. I’d wager a great many of them donate their time and money to other worthy causes just as your illustrious self.
For somebody or any government to tell what a woman can do with her own body goes totally against the principles this nation was built upon. Pro choice or Pro life is not the governments decision, it is the decision of the woman.
As a person who has had to make this decision my belief is that if a person cannot give a baby the proper life and provide every essential need for the baby then maybe you should not have the baby.
yeah boy…can’t no one tell me what to do…shiiitt I run red lights all the time. F the police it’s my car, right?
I may not be able to provide a suitable argument, but all I know is that newborns are the only innocent people in our world…I say give them all a chance.
Being pro-life doesn’t mean you have can’t be pro choice as well… I personally agree if you want to have an abortion, have one, if you don’t, don’t. PROCHOICE… If you want to keep if because you are against it you’re PRO-CHOICE, just choosing to keep it…
You’re not a goddamn bad person if you get an abortion. Every woman has a right to their own choice. Get off your judgmental high horse and get the fuck out of other peoples business.
She deciding to terminate someone else’s life, not her own. That would be euthanasia, and a separate issue.
Until the fetus can be separated from the mother, it should be considered part of the mother, and how or whether to care for it needs to be her decision and responsibility. Until you can carry that fetus to term for her, you are basically sentencing the mother to a biological jail sentence and giving no other solution.
Until the father can carry the fetus, all he can do is offer support and hope that is enough. It sucks, but that’s the reality. Otherwise, where is the line? If mom doesn’t take her prenatal vitamins and the baby dies can he sue her for baby neglect?
Besides, how do you prosecute offenders? How do you tell the difference between an illegal abortion and a natural miscarriage? Are you going to jail everyone who has a miscarriage for murder? Make them prove their case in court?
The scenarios that don’t consider the unique situation of the fetus and the mother is comparing apples to oranges.
Until every child who is already born has a safe environment and a real chance at a full life, why don’t we focus on helping them? Or help provide a support structure for desperate people to turn as an alternate?
Many of the people choosing abortion are desperate and have no support structure. Change that, and you change the abortion rate without even having to tell someone how to live their life or get government involved in their reproductive cycle, with the added bonus of dealing with the root issue instead of the symptom. All the current debate does is cause conflict and put very personal, highly private, personal responsibility in the government’s hands and legislates one person’s morality over another.
It’s the woman’s decision. It shouldn’t have to be anyone else’s business.
It takes two people to make a baby. Also, she’s making a bigger decision about the body of the fetus than about her own body.
I think that is an unfair generalization.
This is not a difficult argument. The ethics are muddied by belief rather than fact and this is always hard to reconcile, I’m sensitive to that. However in a society that is far from perfect and therefore outside the ideals enforced by pro-life, pro-choice is the only choice. I would love to believe in a world where pro-lifers were right. But it doesn’t exist. Therefore the choice needs to exist. And if you need convincing…
http://www.isteve.com/abortion.htm
How is it fair for us to say that all clusters of cells in a gamete are human? At what point are these little clusters considered so? If killing a small group of cells that would, BUT HAVE YET TO BECOME, a human being is considered murder, would all girls on their period be arrested? What about guys jacking off? Sperm and egg cells have a chance at creating human life, and just their unification to create a gamete does not mean any more or any less until that gamete becomes a baby with real, non maternally supported life.
Also consider the fact that if rape and incest victims can have abortions without criticism, the entire platform of many arguments are shattered. If you think it is okay to kill a potential baby in certain circumstances, it is okay in all circumstances. A baby is a baby(innocent), and if one says that certain fetuses are okay to be killed while some arent, that undermines the conclusion that one is pro-life. Though abortion isnt a nice solution, there should be less argument over whether or not it should be legal. If you can abort certain healthy babies, like children of rape victims(totally support abortion in this case, by the way), It is only fair to make it legal to abort any baby if the mother wishes. A baby is a baby, they are equally innocent whether they be cause of rape, unprotected sex, or planned parenthood. It sucks to have to do this, but choice is the fairest option.
From a moral perspective, I despise abortion. However, I am fairly certain that no arguing or pushing to any extreme will change the laws for this reason: To abolish abortion is to abolish abortion entirely.
So, for example, if the doctor predicted certain complications at birth that could cripple or kill the host, an abortion is the suggested procedure, so that the mother may be spared rather than needlessly killing her with the dying baby. Regulations could be made, but then where does the line go? How likely does death or permanent injury need to be to justify the abortion. In fact, what sort of complications would be considered justifiable in the first place?
Secondly, what about the case of rape? A woman is raped (or claims rape as in the case that started this whole argument) and becomes impregnated. Is it possible to make an exception for her? No. For this reason: The only way to make abortion illegal is to classify it as first-degree murder. If one is raped, she is unable to kill the rapist legally (after the act, of course). Therefore, it would still be illegal to abort the baby in spite of the potential damage it could do to her physically, emotionally, financially, etc.
On top of this, our country is dealing with more pressing matters, involving the so-called “war”, getting our troops home, trying not to implode economically, and so on. We as human beings can urge others to make the right choice, but attempting to enforce it will be nothing more than a wasted effort.
I’m curious as to why people think that it must be an all-or-nothing abolishment. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’ve never worked in a medical field, if you think that there is a /predictable/ condition that would allow the fetus to be carried to term, only to kill the mother in childbirth. You might be thinking of ectopic pregnancies, but that fetus cannot be carried to term. It will /not/ survive, and if not removed, neither will the mother. An ectopic pregnancy must be removed before the fetus is viable, and perhaps one day, we will be able to save them too. No doctor that has any business practicing medicine would allow the mother to try and have a vaginal birth with a child that they know will have complications. That’s what caesarean sections are for; to save mother and child. If either one dies that late in a pregnancy, it should /never/ be because the doctor actively killed one to save the other.
There’s nothing wrong with being pro-life, just don’t restrict the rights of others with your own ideology. If it’s in her womb, feeding off her nutrients, as a parasite, it can’t survive on its own and therefore it’s the mothers choice. If your pro-life don’t get an abortion, simple.
heloo is everybody watching b 4 i get this party started?
It’s so damn stupid that you think your own nonexistence would be painful. Haha! silly people.
Who says it’s painful? It’s denying someone’s right to live, which is an affront to humanity. No one said anything about the fetus dying and going to a place of eternal agony and torment because mommy didn’t want them.
I’m pro life…..pro plant life, pro rest-of-the-animal-kingdom life. Human life does nothing for the planet. Nothing.
Pro abortion. Until all of the uncared for children out there are given safe homes with loving families, why should we bring more into this world? If your god cares so much about all of these “innocent lives,” then why do millions of children starve to death, get molested, die of illnesses, etc. daily? For fucks sake, stop concerning yourselves with these insignificant things that have no cognitive abilities, cannot experience pain, and take up more room on our planet. OPEN UP YOUR FUCKING EYES and see what is in front of you. See the beings that are in constant agony and try putting a bit more energy in fighting for THEIR rights. Maybe then we could improve the miserable conditions that ail our worthless species.
It’s your own CHOICE………Sometimes abortion is the right thing in certain cases. If you were raped and got pregnant would you want a reminder every day that your childs father is a rapist and his sperm created them. HELL NO. So don’t think abortion is wrong in every situation….If it was it wouldn’t be legal.
My fiance and I had an unplanned pregnancy. Guess what? Still pro-life.
Judging by your use of “my fiance” and not “my ex-boyfriend” or “ex-fiance” or “this one guy,” I am absolutely ecstatic for you that you have a supportive, loving man in your life who made your pro-life stance possible.
Some women are not so lucky.
And being pro-life was YOUR CHOICE, but should your fiance not have been so supportive, at least you had one.
Oh, and in case you were wondering…
My husband and I, too, had an unplanned pregnancy while we were still “just kinda engaged.” And we kept the child – my son is the light of my life.
Doesn’t mean I feel I need to force my decision to not personally wish to have an abortion -ever, barring terrible circumstances like an above poster stated about his child having body-stalk anomaly- on anyone else. My choice is my choice. Yours is yours. I respectfully choose to respect your choice.
You’re right, we women need a man in our lives in order to feel validated enough to raise our children.
I aborted once.
It was the best choice.
I was in that position because I was raped.
I think women should always be allowed to have that choice and assess their situation. It’s not murder til it’s born – then it’s a commitment.
I think everyone is loosing site of the fact that this is meant to be satire.
I thought I was pro-choice untill I had an unplanned pregnancy at 16.
I’m now a proud pro-lifer. but that dosen’t I think someone’s horrible if they chose abortion, it’s just what I agree with.
ABORTION FTW!!! No person, government, or creed will dictate to me what grows inside my own uterus. All you pro-choice FUCKS need to take your heads out of your ass and get hip to the fact that a mass of tissue and dividing cells is not a baby and the choice to have children or not should be left to the person who actually has a developed brain. AMIRIGHT???
What’s with people confusing the PC terms? “Pro-choice”, madam, refers to those who side WITH abortion, and “pro-life” are those AGAINST it. If you’re going to make yourself sound like a psychotic feminist, at least attempt to sound like an intelligent psychotic feminist.
I had an unplanned pregnancy. And I didn’t think ONCE about having a choice. If I was mature enough to be having sex, I’m mature enough to grow up and be a mom. Sadly, I lost my unborn baby before my 3rd month.
Start thinking before you start typing.
You think logically and rationally, and due to your wise decision somehow you were rewarded for doing the right thing. I praise people like you, and if only there were more like you this world would be a safer and better place.
LOL. I love sarcasm.
I know; joking about someone’s miscarriage is fecking hilarious.
This is the longest list of comments ever. Everyone has valid points but from where I stand it’s just another choice women have to make for THEMSELVES. People make choices everyday…if it doesn’t involve you stay out of it. It’s not like they are making the decision to abort your child. This topic is so ridiculous…it’s not yours or the governments choice to decide what a person wants to do with their body or how they want to live their life.
Hear me out real quick. This is the most common pro-choice response I’ve ever heard, and I discuss this issue fairly occasionally. I like that response (very libertarian) for most issues in politics: if it doesn’t concern you, then stay the hell out of it. However, with abortion you have to consider the possibility that the fetus is a living human being. If this is true, its life must be protected as per the 1st Amendment. If you don’t believe a fetus is a human being, then I hope you’ll take time to consider these questions:
1) Is sentience what we should use to define being ‘human’?
2) If so, at what point does human tissue become sentient?
3) If not, how do you define being ‘human’?
4) If a human being has rights as soon as it exits the mother’s birth canal, how much different is it than 5 minutes before, when it was still in the uterus?
5) Given question #4, aren’t most, if not all attempts to define when life begins completely arbitrary?
6) If life begins neither at birth, not at conception, but somewhere else in between, how do you decide at which point a fetus becomes human without ‘playing God’?
*nor at conception
I used to be “pro-choice”. However, once you have an ultrasound and see the heart beating, and arms and legs moving, it’s pretty hard to think of the baby as “just a bunch of cells”. Abortion kills that beating heart and moving arms and legs — that’s a living human being that is killed. I’m pro-life now.
The thing many people don’t understand about being pro-choice is that you are not actually “supporting” abortions, you are supporting women’s right to choose whether they want them. There is a reason its not called pro-abortion, there’s nothing pleasant or good about abortion, but in the options it gives women there is. I have friends who are pro-choice and would never even consider an abortion themseleves. Being pro-choice shows you are enlightened enough to be able to support the CHOICE others make amd how they will choose to live their lives.
I consider it similar to the idea of birth control, a women should be able to choose whether she want to sacrifice her life to bring life ino the world, which is a big responsibility, she can do this through abstinence, birth control, or if need-be, abortion. Today, it’s nobody’s business on whether a women is on brith control and it is generally (with some noted religious exceptions) not considered wrong. However, if you think of pregnancy in terms of ‘potential’ (like most pro-life individuals so), then becuase there is potential to conceive a child every time you engage in intercourse, then essentially you are murdering everytime youuse a contraceptive as well. Or one could go even further and say that once a people reaches the age when the can conceive and if they don’t, they are murdering the potential for life.
There is a reason abortion exists, fetusus are not yet people, but children are. A waste of life is seeing that child suffer in poverty or abuse becuase of a bad decision a women made.
” I have friends who are pro-choice and would never even consider an abortion themseleves. Being pro-choice shows you are enlightened enough to be able to support the CHOICE others make amd [sic] how they will choose to live their lives.”
And I’m pro life, but would never interfere with a woman’s right to choose what’s right for her. I guess I’m not as enlightened as you and your friends.
I just want to touch on an angle not really discussed yet…everyone makes mistakes. All of you think back to the times when you have taken a risk and yes been a bit stupid..regardless of what the mistake was, whether it was sleeping with someone without protection or fucking something up at work.You shouldn’t think less of someone who has made a mistake and had to make an awful decision about what to do. We are only human. I am pretty sure that most women do not take this decision lightly. I really agree that you cannot generalise as to whether it is right or not. It depends entirely on the person’s situation, and maybe it’s a selfish thing to do in one person’s eyes, but everyone does selfish things in life. i mean, cheating on a lover is an selfish thing to do as they have to spend months getting over it. A fetus does not have any emotions or consciousness. Unless you are in that situation of thinking, “oh crap I’m pregnant, what should I do?” you cannot say what decision you might make. It’s all very well to say, “oh I’d never do that” but so many external factors come into it. This debate could go on forever, there will never be a solid answer as to whether it is right or wrong. As long as it is a decision that has been considered fully by the individual with acknowledgment to all aspects of the debate then that is of main importance. They have made the right decision IN THEIR EYES for themselves and those around them who will be affected and that is all that matters.
Rape is a crime because it is about not having consent. If a woman doesn’t consent to have someone growing inside her, then they have to leave. Her body, her property, her rules.
Also, an embryo is a watery agglomeration of cells with the potential to be a person, but it isn’t a baby, it is closer to a benign tumor. You get nothing baby-like for quite a long time, and certainly nothing viable.
Once the baby is born, then you can worry about it’s fate, beforehand it’s none of your damn business.
i’ve read through several of these responses and from the sounds of it the majority of these comments are made by men whether you agree or not, and i’ve always been of the opinion that unless you are a woman you have no right to vote on such an issue. you contribute your dna to the process of making a baby, but you’re not the one who has to carry it for 9 months, you’re not the one who’s judged for the rest of your life for getting pregnant before being married, you’re the ones who tend to run away from the responsibility (some of the times, not all just to clarify). point is having to take all the pros and cons into consideration of whether or not a child at the time is something a woman should be allowed to have. my mother had an abortion several years before she had me, her eldest daughter, if she hadn’t had that abortion she’d probably be a single mother because her boyfriend who got her pregnant ran off on her, her family would’ve disowned her, and she never would’ve met my father or had my sister and i. we all have choices in life to make, who’s the government to step in and take that away from us?
“i’ve read through several of these responses and from the sounds of it the majority of these comments are made by men whether you agree or not, and i’ve always been of the opinion that unless you are a woman you have no right to vote on such an issue.”
I’ve never been a victim of rape, therefore I can’t have a (valid) opinion on rape?
“you contribute your dna to the process of making a baby, but you’re not the one who has to carry it for 9 months, you’re not the one who’s judged for the rest of your life for getting pregnant before being married, you’re the ones who tend to run away from the responsibility (some of the times, not all just to clarify). ”
No, men just have to support the child for 18 years. This is enforced by violence (the thread of imprisonment) whether the man chose to have the child or not. You will be judged by your actions whichever you choose. By and large I prefer to ignore the judgments of others. Yeah, some men run away. Just like some women falsely accuse men of rape.
The rest of your comment has nothing to do with reality. You’re just making it up,
Please, the world is populated enough as it is – people should be able to choose if they wish to abort their child or not. It isn’t even a baby up until about 3-4 months; you really want to force a woman who was raped to have the baby of her attacker? You want to force a homeless drug addict woman to give birth to a child that could be born with the same addiction?
I mean I’m not in favour of people getting pregnant left right and center and aborting every child, no no, but people should be able to choose if it is a dire situation and they really cannot afford to have the child.
Fucking natural selection, with a little bit of human intervention.
Schrödinger’s cat it doesn’t matter
Good for you. You can have your choice. I didn’t believe it was right for me. One unplanned pregnancy later (while diligently taking the pill), and I still don’t believe it’s for me. So if you want to continue using abortion in place of birth control, I don’t care. But it’s still not for me.
A fetus is not a Human, and it does do harm to the carrier. The fetus takes all nutrients for itself and leaves nothing for the carrier. A fetus is, as a definition, a Parasite. I am pro-choice, however I would prefer women to choose life it is her choice. Also, Guys, yes people with dicks, have no right to tell a woman what she should do when pregnant. When you have to carry a person inside you body for more than Nine months and then have it rip your body apart trying to get out and then suck food from your body for the next 6 months to a year! Yes, babies are wonderful but that is the hard, cold truth of pregnancy and fetus (which are NOT infants or Babies or a person.) Also, If a woman is being punished for having sex by having a baby then the man need to have his tubes tied, pass kidney stones for the next nine months or castration. it takes two to tango; she did not do it alone.
What do you mean men cant comment? What if for example a girl pokes a hole in a condom, or lies about the pill or even saves some of his semen to get pregnant and gets herself knocked up with the child of a man who didn’t want one. Fuck you if you say I cant vote for pro choice, that man now has 9 lbs ball and chain that will cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next 18 years and could in fact ruin HIS life as well. Not only this a man has NO say in with things as they are. Leave your sexist bullshit at the door, men should be able to comment too.
The moment I enter the sex play act, I know that a beautiful baby may come. Does not mean that I’m a male or female.
pro life or not, a baby brought into a world unwanted will cause problems beyond itself and the mother. So whos choice is it?
i bet you one unplanned pregnancy that i would accept the consequences of my actions and try doing what’s best for the kid, rather than what’s best for me.
that is what adoption is for.
I am adopted. My mother chose to have me, and my family chose to raise me. For that I am thankful.
I have had an abortion, and would never have another one, not because I think they are ‘wrong’ but because when I had the first one, I was at a TOTALLY different place in my life. Now I can afford to have a child and not resent it. In fact, I have four, and will continue to have them as long as it suits me and my husband.
And I will never judge anyone who chooses the best thing for their life.
There is an old hip hop group called Digable Planets who made a song in 1994 called “La Femme Fetal” (not at typ0). Whatever you feel personally about abortion, check the song out. It makes some valid points. My favorite line goes:”Pro-lifers need to dig themselves, because life doesn’t stop after birth, and for a child born to the unprepared, it might even just get worse.”
I suppose it was naive of me to assume I wouldn’t see an abortion debate upon scrolling down to see the comments
The truth about being pro-choice.
I’ll bet you one planned abortion that you are secretly pro-life. Most women who have an abortion suffer from depression from the loose of life they just aborted. A little secret most abortion clinics do not want you to know.
Considering they offer counselling specifically for people having an abortion, I’m pretty sure they don’t try to hide that. Abortion clinics don’t pretend that abortion is a simple and quick decision. There are no qualms about it being a tough choice and a life changing thing. However, ultimately, one needs to decide which would be the best choice. Not everyone is fit to raise a child. My father once watched a woman give birth in her 3rd month of pregnancy, she was so drunk she didn’t even remember giving birth. The baby came out horribly disfigured, he described it as looking like “taking a Mr. Potato Head and rearranging his features.” The baby, fortunately, died. Some babies would be better off, and the suicide rates among foster children can only attest to that.
People May Have A Different View on Aborting a Baby if You Had One. I Had My Daughter at 17 And the Mother Wanted to Abort her My Mother And Her Mother Told Her To Keep The Baby, And So We Did. The Child Has Changed My Life So Much I Love Her With All My Heart. Just Because You Dont Think You Can Support A Child, Sometimes You May Surprise Yourself.
I bet you if you were faced with terrorist threat to your wife or child that you are secretly a murderer. You see, you have to look at the context. Jackass.
BAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
more importantly, a womans decision is a womans decison. People have no right to judge. Plus, isnt it against the bible to judge others for their actions? abortions dont make you a bad person. There are special circumstances for everything. It also depends on how far along you are. I dont believe in anything past 3 months.
Being pro-life is fine, unless you attempt to change the freedoms of others because of your personal beliefs.
If a large percentage of this country believed we shouldn’t be able to own dogs (I’m sure those crazies are out there) I don’t believe it should effect my freedom to own a dog. They don’t think we should own dogs? Fine, YOU don’t own a dog. This is a country free enough for you to have your own religion, AND speak your mind, so now you can tolerate me exercising my own freedoms.
i agree completely. to each their own.
^^ thumbs up
A fetus isn’t even a human, it has the ability to become a person in time, but the fetus is nothing more than a parasite since it can hardly survive without getting what it needs from the mother. Even if the fetus has the right to life, it does not necessarily have the right to use the mother’s body. It is a woman’s own body, and if she does not wish to share it then she shouldn’t have to.
Why does it matter to any Pro-Life person what a women does with her body? Its her body and its or her to say what she does or doesn’t do with it.
The comment below me is bullshit. That is all.
Look its not really murder of a person, since a fetus is not really a person yet. Many abortions I’m sure take place before a real nervous system even forms preventing that mass of cells from becoming an individual. For all your emotions and thoughts they only exist and make you “sentient” because of your neural network. So to speak with a developped nervous system they AREN’T a person yet, just a lump of cells, and even then you’d have to wait for cephalization (a head forming). After a certain point in the pregnancy I would conisder it murder, but say first month MAYBE first two months. no its not
As much as I am upset that my daughter is pregnant, I am proud that she is against killing a life.
For all of you who are pro life. What happens when some girl gets raped. Should she have to sacrifice 9 months of her life( assuming she only has the baby then puts it up for adoption) and go through the pain that is child birth? Not to mention medical bills that the couple could have as a result. Its easy to have an opinion on something until you are faced with a extremely difficult situation. Life isn’t always black and white and many of you who claim you would “never have an abortion” very well might if you had an unplanned pregnancy and were not yet ready to be a parent or any other number of circumstances.
Hey! Sure it’s been said before, but does someone getting an abortion affect you AT ALL in ANY way?
No.
Does someone killing a human being already “alive” affect you? It could.
Does someone doing drugs affect you? It could.
The list goes on.
Having an abortion only affects the female and the male who were involved. That’s it. You could argue that it affects the fetus, but it doesn’t matter because the fetus has yet to affect anyone but those who created it.
If you’re pro-life, then don’t get an abortion. The end.