What The Fuck Is Wrong With America?
I’ll make this quick and full of pomp and outrage:
What kind of fucking country do you live in where you have to debate whether torturing someone is a crime? What kind of country do you live in when you can spend 3 years prosecuting the President for a consensual sexual act but won’t prosecute a President for authorizing illegal wiretaps and torturing people? What kind of country do you live in where the supposed ‘spiritual’ and ‘religious’ leaders think it’s OK to torture non-Christians? What kind of country do you live in where you can’t even use the word ‘torture’ but have to say ‘interrogation techniques’? What kind of country do you live in when their Nuremberg defense (‘We were just following orders’) becomes the mantra for not holding war criminals accountable for their actions? What kind of country do you live in where a major candidate in a Presidential primary openly advocates for doubling the size of America’s illegal detention centers and increasing the use of torture?
Obama, you won the fucking election. Everyone despises Bush and his administration — they spent 8 years spitting on international law, good sense, and common decency. Fucking prosecute them. God damnit.
[tags]george bush, barack obama, what kind of country is america, torture, what is torture, defining torture, the debate on torture, Nuremberg defense, criminals, prosecution, use of torture, bush administration, Geneva convention, Guantanamo bay[/tags]
Ms. Noonan – You are a breath of fresh air!!. Thank you for saying what we all should have been saying these last few days. Criminal acts are criminal acts. No one is above the law and we must uphold our legal and moral standards.
Thank you again.
Beautiful rant. It speaks to and for me, and to and for untold millions of Americans.
Get the bastards in the dock, already.
That pretty much sums it all up, whats disgusting, is that this is why we left our homeland, to leave this type of bullshit behind. But here we are, a good half of the bush admin needs to be jailed, we need to star the slow proccess of regaining all that was lost in the last 100 years.
I am not sure if I am alone here, but I would gladly give up living in the lap of luxury to have my rights and freedoms back again, anyone with me on this?
[…] by alecb [link] [27 […]
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That’s what happens when corporate greed and fundamentalist crusading shake hands. And just because Obama is called leader now, doesn’t mean the gears in motion come to a screeching halt. Corporations essentially rule the country now and using religion keeps enough people on board for them to get away with just about anything.
just wanted to point out that none of that stuff youre angry about (and im angry about, too) has changed since Obama took office. its not going to change under his administration either. he cant prosecute Bush and his friends for that stuff because then he’d have to prosecute himself for the same shit.
America: you want REAL change? then get it right and elect ron paul in 2012
Pretty pathetic isnt it. Actually makes me ashamed to admit I am an American!
RT
http://www.anonymity.es.tc
If my AMERICAN flag offends you…then leave. You are the problem… not the solution!
yes, you american are great problem creators, good that you are going down, you think you own the world. you will end up like the roman empire “DOWN”. By the way take your rag flag and wipe your……. with it.
Clinton was a sleazeball that lied about something under oath. Bush should be prosecuted, but let’s not say that one lie under oath is ok and another is not.
Clinton lied to us, you, me, your mom, your dog, and jesus were he real. He AND Bush deserved impeachment.
[…] Good rant over at Prose Before Hos. Here’s just a sample: What kind of f**king country do you live in where you have to debate […]
you all are a bunch of whiny, pissed off little ants. I knew someone would go here ok let me explain it to you
(A) it never was about the blowjob you ignorant fucks it was about the president lying bold faced to the public on air and to the world.
(b)its a fucking war and people have to be tortured you better be lucky its not your ass being water boarded, which by all accounts is a mild form of torture and the had doctors on site to make sure that it did exceed what the patient could take. yes i know i wouldnt like it but wake up people its a fucking war, it sucks but its what happens in war?
by the way who in the fuck said America’s morals are such that we shouldn’t torture… umm someone hasn’t been reading their history if you hippy bastards want a peaceful society move to Sweden. because America goddamn sure isn’t your country we are the nastiest dirtiest backstabbing Indian raping plunder and pillage country in the war its a nation built on the death of millions of others, pretty much just like other countries. soooooo get a brain stop whining about torture and what not your the dumb asses that voted bush in don’t get mad know that you don’t like the taste in your mouth.
swallow baby, swallow
I don’t know if a war justifies torture does it? maybe you should be ashamed of your history then?
I think the author has his answer “Shocked”. You and people like you are what’s wrong with America. Ignorant, irrational, only just literate, and most of all, stupidly, tribally unreasonably ANGRY at people for having a different opinion than yours. You have half thought through ideas and ramblings that make no real sense.
Are you saying the author is “lucky” to not be being water-boarded because people who disagree with you should be water boarded? People aren’t generally tortured as a matter of policy in war, that’s a war crime.
Are you saying it’s a good thing or a bad thing that America is so violent? If you don’t think it’s good why do you want the peaceful types to leave?
Finally I would be surprised if either the author or the people reading and agreeing with him (who you seem to be addressing at the end of your comment )large “the dumb asses that voted bush in”… i’d more inclined to believe that you were a supporter… since you think his policies were acceptable…
http://www.prosebeforehos.com/stiflystiferson/06/30/ten-signs-of-intellectual-honesty/#more-7284
I beg to differ. I know it was a blowjob, but, to a Christian, and we have learned this from our “abstinence only” friends and relations, these people consider intercourse, sexual relations. Look at all the stats from the abstinence crowd. Girls taking it up the ass and blowjobs are the norm at parties…Clinton didn’t lie, he got a blowjob, he didn’t have sexual relations according to his faith, and according to the faiths of most of the republicans at the time. Clinton sold weapons to the Turks to use in their little genocide, he signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall, and the modernization act which allowed those lovely little derivatives to tank the global economy…but as for the blowjob, any president who wants one probably has a line of willing women/men who would drop and give them 20..let’s rail Bill for his real faults, not the sexual paranoia that those in power would shower down upon us like little yellow raindrops…
Great post, makes me think.
A shitty country run by two parties full of worthless douchebags that are so corrupt we can’t do anything to get rid of them despite the overwhelming desire of the thinking few who don’t want to get into the kickbacks and elblowrubbing, but are smart enough to see it happening… fuck them all, because they fuck us.
RT – the border is open in both directions. If you are ashamed to be American, no one is is water boarding you to stay; get out.
Its morons like u, sam, shocked, etc, that we will soon hopefully stomp into the ground. Maybe we can mechanically sodomize and torture u first though
I am supporting you will. Little morons like them that have big mouth and little to push out of it, will be first to stick there head in the hole, afraid of facing reality when time come. Hey morons, are you aware that war is nocking at your door? I don’t think you are ready to face it. Get ready to get your brain fried.
awesome sam, awesome
So if I’m not particularly proud of America right now, I should leave? Are you proud of America? Are you proud of the Bush years?
There will never be a time where everyone is happy. NEVER. Fucking shut up you whiny faggots, deal with the fact that your way isn’t the majority.
Actually, “our” way IS the majority, you pathetic creature. Check out any poll on the subject. But somehow “majority rule” became a joke in the face of Republican election fraud and the corporate purchase of Congress.
(A) it never was about the blowjob you ignorant fucks it was about the president lying bold faced to the public on air and to the world.
I agree.
Also, what has torturing prevented? Don’t try to make a point before you have full documentation. I guess that’s what we get for Obama being selective about what he releases.
quote from shocked:
(b)its a fucking war and people have to be tortured you better be lucky its not your ass being water boarded, which by all accounts is a mild form of torture and the had doctors on site to make sure that it did exceed what the patient could take. yes i know i wouldnt like it but wake up people its a fucking war, it sucks but its what happens in war?
I guess waterboarding someone until they died is exceptable. But hey, it’s all good as long as there’s medical personel around.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/world/20detain.html
People like you are what’s wrong with this country. You can’t stoop to using such tactics and expect to take the high ground. Yes, we had to make a stand. But it’s how you make that stand that defines what type of country you are. And Bush using lies and manipulation to push us into war is/was un-forgiveable. No-one should be above the law. No-one.
Torture Never, ever, ever, works. A person will say anything to make the pain stop.
Interrogation on the other hand, has worked for decades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff
Lastly. Anyone who wants to start that tried and true bullshit about ” Oh well your unAmerican. You hate freedom. Your unpatriotic. Your a traitor. etc. etc.” You can take a trip to Fallujah and tell it to the part of my left leg I left there. I served my country. What the fuck have you done for it?
He he he. You fake tough boys talking about how this is WAR and we better get used to is and be thankful we’re not getting waterboarded, etc are a goofy bunch of silly pussy bastards.
You all suffer the bravery of being out of range.
You will always be victims.
Clinton wasn’t prosecuted for sex no matter how many times you say it. He committed PERJURY.
You are also being disgraceful for distorting history.
cs
Chris is correct. Nothing has changed, and nothing will change. Sure, unlike the last president, Obama is literate, but that’s about it. At the end of the day, the republican and the democrat politicians go out and play golf with each other. There’s no difference between the two and hasn’t been for some time.
you got it right? Thank you for your post these other fuckers here make me ill. Your right nothing changes, Change is Bullshit, they all still worship the dollar – Greed is King and fuck the Red Shirts! Whatever, glad to see someone has a little thought out there.
[…] Word Of The Day placed an observative post today on What The Fuck Is Wrong With America? | Prose Before HosHere’s a quick excerptWhy are we holding debates on whether or not people who torture others are criminals. […]
WTF? If you fucking hate this country so god damn much, then get the fuck out. And fuck everyone who hates this country. You are all a bunch of hippy, make-love-not-war pussies. This is America. You are in this country because we suceeded at war. You are free because we were good at war. Does war suck? Absolutely. Does torture suck? Absolutely. But it is a necessary evil to ensure that your lame asses are kept free. Go wave your rainbow colored flags in another country you woodstock freaks.
How does loosing our freedoms make us free? That’s like saying you have to suck a dick to avoid oral sex. Selling out our constitution and changing it to lose the freedoms our forefather fought and died for is a slap in their face and every face that sees things as they did. You’re a fool if you think that because we see a problem with this that we should leave this country when we have a duty to ourselves to defend our freedom from both foreign and domestic tyranny. To the issue of torture…. It doesn’t work. Case in point there were no weapons of mass destruction, but I’ll bet the guys being tortured by us said there was. You call us hippies as if that were a bad thing. Hippies didn’t agree with the Vietnam war. Where’s the crime in that and why does that make them bad? Would we be speaking Vietnamese today if we lost? Oh wait we did lose that war and guess what, we’re not speaking Vietnamese. My point is that not all wars need to be fought and the Iraq was is one of them. So let’s see… Torture doesn’t work, our freedoms have been slowly taken away to fight this war. Tell me again how this is good for our country?
I bet you don’t even know the meaning to the word freedom nor the essence behind it.
Go fuck yourself you sub human piece of shit. Its people like you who got Hitler in power. Get a fucking brain you fascist asshole.
i love it now that americans are finally just beginning to see how the rest of the world has viewed them for the last 50 years.
NB: JUST BEGINNING. you are still alot more fucked up than you even realise.
This is why you are no longer the worlds superpower, and will never be again.
first off fuck you, and dont you ever down America. second america will allways be in power, America is not an idiot its been around since 1776 right… well in its short time it has became the worlds most powerful nation, but like all other nations it does have its problems. the rest of the world looks at america like that bitch at school that once was the hottest girl till the america came. but what ever,
yes i do think america is now ran by a few people that make bad desisions, and the americans are to fucking lazy or not educated, or even blind to do anything, where is the freedoom? what? freedom? what the fuck is that? to live wealthy? not rich but wealthy, to get a speeding ticket and give up all my money cuz i was speeding, to not be able to get any job i wish, to have to be in debt because i cant aford to go to collage, or to not be able to legalize marijuana.
I gave my freedom up for 5 years so the rest can live in this free country, so that those vets that gave they freedom can stand at the light and beg for money, or so that little timmy can die because he cant afford to go to the hospital.
i mean WTF where is my free country, or did the land of the free ment free out of jail.
i belive that there was a time in history where there was freedom, but i think it is gone, it has been taken by the rich, and im not talking about billgates rich, im talking about that person that made this computer, and the telivision maker and all the companis we rely on for our daily needs.
why must i shave for my job, to look clean and have a perfecional look? didnt your mama tell you not to judge a book by its cover? i can use a suit and tie, but i bet you never knew that im a criminal, a thief, a liar… infact you dont kno shit about me exept that i look presentable, im here to decive you, and make up your mind for you. i am like an ilusion, and you are A O.K with that right?
i want my freedom, i want to tell the goverment what to do instead of it telling me what i can and cannot do. isnt this why america came to be?
the world is corrupt, THE WORLD, thats why it dont even mater what anyone says, its all like the universe POINTLESS.
What kind of country? Why the USSA. “Love it or leave it?” Tell you what, why don’t the torturers leave? They knew most of the ones grabbed were innocent. Heard of the “mosaic” theory? They’re not guilty, but can still provide a piece of the mosaic.
Remember the American contractor tortured? Was he a terrorist? Google “Donald Vance”
you idiot! clinton wasn’t being prosecuted for having extramarital sex, he was being prosecuted for lying on the stand. get your facts correct.
If our adversaries used waterboarding on captured US solders, would we declare it torture? Of course! That is a bad, bad policy. I thought we were the good guys.
Many of you on here should be the ones giving the BJ’s you certainly have the mouths for it. I have always been told the use of vulgar language is a sign of not having anything intelligent to say. I can make my point here with a minimal amount of offensive language. Since I am one of the few who would be offended it makes it really easy. I am far short of being a perfect moral being but that really was not the issue in the end for Clinton. He lied under oath and that gave the mob a good exscuse to impeach him. I am not a Republican and certainly not a Democrat. I am the leader of a new party called the grass roots party. We pride ourselves on having minds and thoughts that are completely our own. What’s more is we rarely agree on anything except Republicans and Democrats alike are corrupt in their own right. We are centrists and dislike and distrust both parties equally. America has truly missed our chance to be leaders in the world because we cannot even decide on a direction we ourselves want to go much less a direction to lead the world. Finally G.W. Bush was the last President we will ever have that even cares if you respected him. So go ahead and rail away on him because we are all about to be rewarded for our failure to support a strong America. We are now making our enemies our friends and our friends our enemies. We will soon be alone in this world, bankrupt and without true leadership. Go Ahead and try to prosecute Bush and you will find just how misleading that 20% popularity poll is.
Oh yeah one last thing if America is so virtuous then why did we imprison our own citizens in WWII simply because of their heritage. If you think those ‘internment’ camps were not torture maybe you should visit one for your next vacation. America has the right, no the duty to do whatever leadership says in a time of war to protect and properly defend it’s citizenry. That is all now go back to your whining and sedition.
you believe everything you’ve been fucking told? That’s what’s wrong with America. Fucking gullable. My filthy fucking language has no reflection of my level of intelligence which has been tested to be just below GENIUS. This page may be 1 year old however the level of ignorance displayed on it is absofuckinglutely fascinating. If you have a problem with the country you were born in, and do LOVE…the answer is not to leave it, but to question it and open your neighbors minds to it. To you supporting the war for OIL, still occuring today, do you idiots really think us occupying just about every country in the middle east is doing anything but fueling their hatred for us as a nation? You’re happy with how you’re being represented by our greedy government? FUCK. It’s you fucking idiots with your “if you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say it at all” mentalities that have MINDFUCKED and brainwashed the citizens of this country. fuck you. eat my profane and filthy ass. I’m so ready for the old people holding onto ideals that are long dead, and only serve to dumb down the masses to DIE, so the youth of America has a chance at the future they deserve.
The youth of America deserves what they will get for backing Obama the traitor.
What center, you mean between the right leaning democrats or the falling off the edge of the right republicans? Or do you mean the real center, what center?? sure you’re grass isn’t astroturf??
proud of Bush, starting a war with a country that didn’t attack us? See Bush forgot one large thing, he said you’re either with us or the terrorists, but he forgot those of us who were against the idea of attacking countries when we were attacked by groups of zealots. Afghanistan and Iraq, neither country attacked the US, yet we attacked them and made them to blame. That’s like Chavez blowing up the white house because Pat Robertson wants him assasinated…Nothing like blowing up ignoranrt shepherds and goat herders to make us feel good. How many millions do we have to kill before we realize that if you follow the money, you can find out whose behind thins, wasn’t it Bush who said that the financiers of 9-11 weren’t important…Is that how the police catch criminals, by not following the money, you know like, who bought the gun, who paid for the rental car which they robbed the bank with.. do we let these bits of information slide when solving other crimes..NO!! We follow all leads. When the guy in power tells us not to look behing the curtain, don’t you think we should look there first?? Wasting our treasure so the rich can get some more cheap oil to overcharge us for? Was that included in the price at the pump? The true patriot believes in the principles of its country, not the person running it, and doesn’t fall lockstep behind der furher, when war breaks out. Stop thinking Bill O’Reilly is a patriot. He’s your gestapo overlord, your Goebbels. Patriotism in a country with freedom of speach, is speaking out when things are wrong, not hiding behind the coattails of the president. Did Jefferson back down when the royalists in the congress wanted a king-like president, NO!!! They stood up for their beliefs which shaped our constitution a system of checks and balances, and freedom. Is the patriot act giving us freedom? Is killing lots of brown people making us safer? Is being on the offensive actually in our country’s best interest? If you answered yes to any of these questions, you have been indoctrinated and you have drunk the kool-aid, go sit in the back and do what you’re told…see, didn’t have to swear either..
Let’s go surfin’ now
Everybody’s learnin’ how
Do some waterboardin’ with me!
Torture apologetics, whats next?
What happened to trying to better yourselves? What happened to the dream of a better humanity. That maybe we could shake this nasty nature of ours — trying to survive at all costs.
Keep your protections. If you’re going to torture, I’d rather be blown up thanks. I won’t carry your sins for you. Nor will I justify your stone-age morality. Evolve dammit.
What the fuck is wrong with America?
One of the problem(this one beeing the most obvious) is that there is only one political party, some years it’s called The Democratic Party, some years it’s called The Republican Party. Over the years, the fusionned into one party, one mentality. Same party, just different friends and 2-3 ideas they can’t agree with.
A plurality voting system is not helping.
From wikipedia : “A plurality electoral systems encourage tactical voting techniques, like “compromising”. Voters are pressured to vote for one of the two candidates they predict are most likely to win, even if their true preference is neither, because a vote for any other candidate will be likely to be wasted and have no impact on the final result.”
The results makes it so that other parties have almost no $$$ and can’t never reach the top. The actual party in place recycle ideas from both parties and other ideas from different parties are pretty much rejected as having what appear to be marginal ideas.
There is no exit to this issue without a major reform of the whole voting process, which is not about to happen, only Ron Paul could do it, Ron Paul 2012 ?
Anonymousymouse… you had me until Ron Paul 2012. God damnit. It’s like the Ron Paul version of Bel Airing.
Who ever is right, who ever is wrong, y’all enjoy that cheap gas! The World is watching and Mother Nature weeps once more . . .
You lefties keep trying to gloss over this, but the fact is that Clinton wasn’t prosecuted for banging the fat chick, he was prosecuted for lying about it under oath. If he’d been smart enough to say “fuck you, I’m not answering that question”, he would have been fine, but NOOOOO, he had to try lying about it. If Bush had perjured himself, you could get him the same way, but he didn’t, so you can’t. Go cope.
Funny thing is Bush did LIE
We do not torture..Bawaa
Should we debate the scope of the LIE – a blow job versus Bush no comparison – Pulease! No comparison.
Won’t matter no how no way
Now the two are going to tour together!
BAWAAAA!!!!
Let take your advice and remember the ridiculousness of the Clinton investigations. But let’s remember that the 3 year investigation of a consensual blow-job happened because first congress began to investigate a shady real estate deal that happened in Arkansas when Clinton was governor. So that’s what happens when Congress investigates wrongdoings, they use it as a political vehicle to attack the other party.
Now onto torture. Who do you want to prosecute for torture? What law do you want to prosecute them for?. The CIA followed the legal opinion (which was flawed) of the justice department on a matter that was not clearly defined in the law. The courts have recently ruled that those justice department legal opinions were wrong and the CIA has shut down its “enhanced interrogation” methods that were justified by the memo. Democracy and the judiciary system worked. The administration that supported torture is out and the courts ruled their actions were illegal and thus torture has stopped.
The executive has to always operate in gray areas of law under the guidance of the justice departments interpretation of law. They have to act before the courts can rule on those interpretations. We can’t prosecute the justice department for drafting an interpretation that the courts struck down. If we did every past administration could be prosecuted for something. That’s what they do in banana republics; attack their predecessors. A massive congressional investigation into the subject would be just that.
Give me a specific person who violated a specific law and we can talk prosecution. As far as an open inquiry into the matter; lets not start a witch hunt that will drag on for years and probably lead to something entirely unrelated as in whitewater. it seems to me the ending of the program and courts ruling on the matter are sufficient.
Clinton was not prosecuted for a “blow-job” but for Lying Under Oath. Many people have went to prison for the same crime, perjury. He is a Lawyer. He knew better.
Bush is now the scapegoat of the same process that gave him eight years in office. After 9/11 we were all ready to nuke whoever was responsible for killing thousands of Americans in New York. If it happens again we will easily take out to countries in our wrath because we can. That doesn’t make us right, but it sure as hell doesn’t mean we deserve it. Those almost 4,000 individuals had nothing to do with Islam and the multi
He did not lie you dumb baboon! He clearly stated he did not have sexual relationships (plural) with that girl.
A blow job is not a relationship. A blowjob is clearly defined as showing the woman who is boss! Suck it Biatch and get on your knees and know your role.
He said “sexual relations” you stupid fucking idiot, not “relationships.” The leader of our country, the leader of our judicial system, fucking LIED under OATH. He committed perjury, you fucking idiot.
HAHAHA LAL ANOTHER STUPID AMERICAN HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Ask any family of the 3,000 plus if they think it is unjust to “water-board those even remotely responsible for their family to be crushed to death under tons of concrete, or to watch them fall to their deaths as they jump from 100+ stories?
If my son was one of those who died trying to save those left screaming in the buildings what do you have to say to me? Why do you think I care about your useless twattell on the internet eight years after the fact? How old are you? whould you even know his name if you hered it read aout loud?
Ask the woman who saw her husband decapitated with a dull knife on the internet. What is waterboarding next to that? Your words are so cheap, what do you know?
Your anger is that of someone who is young (born since 1982)and middle class parents. You don’t know suffering. You live vicariously through the sufferings of others. That makes you the worst kind of Vampire. (I bet you like Twilight, didn’t you?)
Since the President tortured no one, and did not order torture What the F are you talking about.
Do some research and stop listening to the media and the democrats.
Waterboarding is not torture.
Oh and one more question…
Since when are terrorists afforded the rights under the Geneva Convention.
They do not offer them to our service men, why are we required to follow them with terrorist prisoners.
these are murderers. Cold blooded calculating murderers. They do not have rights until they put on a uniform and meet us on the field of battle. Till then waterboard them 1- times a day
such is life. people like myself must bear witness to some of the least intelligent men and women in this country spew forth the most foolish drivel every day. and there’s nothing people like myself can do, for they are so far gone already.
not even the cleverest, best-thought-out retort on their part will ever change reality. and, of course, the most poetic, eloquent words i can muster will ever be heard by these fools.
even so, your words and illusions shall continue to flow forth from your mouths like oil… and blood.
the most pathetic part of it all is that no one will know on which side of this pathetic “disagreement” i am. this is how blurred the line between right and wrong has become. YOU sicken me.
such is life.
i bet 9 out of ten of you didnt even know this:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-clintonperjury.html
i’d laugh, but you’re actually real and take yourselves seriously…. so its not funny.
LOL, it depends what the meaning of the word “Is” is. By every common sense definition of the word he perjured himself. There is not a jury on the Planet that would have disagreed. He knew exactly what he was denying when he swore to the American People that He “did not have sex with that woman.”
Are you saying it is okay to lie to the public about matters under oath as President? Is that our standard of Truth for the highest office?
Vote this Fucker off Reddit.
Who uses Ho! as a positive? Seriously, vote this abortion off of reddit, let digg have it.
America is a country full of religious idiot drones who do what they’re told, think what they’re told, and attack any American who rocks the boat for God and country (aka big business and their political henchmen).
Is this current situation really surprising? I’m more surprised there are any intelligent people left in America who can’t see the ship is sinking and get out while they still can.
Hey Shocked! It’s meatheads like you that make me walk on the other side of the street. Not that I’m afraid of you…it’s just that you tend to avoid going into a room that smells of shit.
We can’t expect to make everyone be just like us, but you go through life doing your best to avoid the evil. Sometimes, though, it runs right into you…kinda like you on this blog.
Check out the movie “Grand Canyon”, it’s all about this kind of thing….
What kind of country do we live in where people who are allegedly so concerned with the rule of law, due process for suspected terrorists, say for people they hate “throw them in the dock already.” Strange internal intellectual inconsistency.
Torture has a legal definition which acts must fit before it is a crime. Too complicated for you to read so I will spare you the site. Requires “specific intent” mens rea of the accused. But um “throw them in the dock.” We live in a country where people want to give Consititutional rights for suspected terrorists and want to dispense with those same rights for people they hate.
Oh and newsflash, you mental midget, Clinton wasn’t prosecuted for getting a blowjob, he was prosecuted for multiple acts of perjury during sexual harrasment cases. Apparently, some people are above the law when it comes to women’s rights, as long as you like the accused and hate the accuser. Your post is simply internally inconsistent and shows your real beef is not about laws and the consitution its about revenge against people you politically hate.
Last think, when you say “illegal” have some fucking basis, e.g. a verdict, a case, otherwise its your own opininion and legally it has no import, much like yourself.
They didn’t prosecute Clinton for a blowjob. They prosecuted him for perjury.
Get off Obama’s dick. He is allowing the same wiretapping Bush did. And Nancy Pelosi knew full well that water boarding was approved for use and did nothing about it until now shes claiming she didn’t know it actually happened… Yet didn’t care that it was an option because she is the two faced lying representation of the democrats in congress.
And of course it goes without saying Clinton was prosecuted for perjury you ignorant fuck. That is illegal. Stop hating Bush and open your eyes to what the current administration is doing. Use some of your almighty insight and criticism that you exercise so well on the past administration with the current one.
If this country is so damn terrible please do us all a favor and get the fuck out. You are entirely welcome to pack up your shit and get out if its so terrible.
Baffled= Excellent post. The inconsistencies of these people that pretend to care about law, or course when applied to terrorist only, is laughable. You don’t even have to read between the lines that it has nothing to do with anything other than Bush hatred. Grow up and use some reasoning rather than hatred you ignorant fucks.
Please don’t say “everyone” despised Bush. That kind of generalization simply isn’t true, and personally, I don’t want to be grouped with you as part of an “everyone” anyway.
You piece of shit green slimy avatar fuck. You call people faggots while you’re taking it in the rear. Move to a country where blowjobs are illegal. Iran! Iraq! That’s where you deserve to live you miserable little pile of crap. America is about freedom baby, and you don’t get it with torture. You are an IQ >80 idiot that doesn’t know the first fucking thing about history. Go blow yourself. Nobody else will.
Kilgatron: Either apparently you can’t read, or you one of those “don’t confuse me with the facts” individuals. I don’t think your post contained a single fact, this will not serve you well in life, unless you come back to reality and deal in “real life.” Clinton was charged for comitting perjury, not for getting a blowjob. That is the one fact in my post for you. Can you do the same? Just include one fact such as “I am scared, although its not factually accurate, that you can get charged for GIVING a blowjob in the U.S., because I was on my knees for Clinton many times.” Say a fact like that, again, all I require is a single fact in a post. Yours had none, bj boy.
I find that very few people (if any) on this website, including you sparkholden present facts, especially inbiased facts. You cannot simply say “hey faggot! Clinton wasn’t charged for getting a BJ, he was charged for perjury. You obviously do not know the facts!”
You do not supply any facts either…What it sounds like is ” you are wrong and I am right because I have facts! And you suck dick.”
And to all those so called “Americans” who say things such as:
“If you fucking hate this country so god damn much, then get the fuck out. And fuck everyone who hates this country. You are all a bunch of hippy, make-love-not-war pussies. This is America. You are in this country because we suceeded at war. You are free because we were good at war. Does war suck? Absolutely. Does torture suck? Absolutely. But it is a necessary evil to ensure that your lame asses are kept free. Go wave your rainbow colored flags in another country you woodstock freaks.”
Well I don’t know…is this a real way of thinking? Bringing up the problems of American society, and perhaps being angry that America does not seem to live up to its potential does not mean that you hate the country. Does it?
And this idea that War is inevitable and that we must simply accept all the evils that go with it…well, all I know is I hope that there are still people who believe it is possible to live in peace and that we still must work at advancing humanity as a whole.
Also one more thing for sparkholden…Honest question: In your post you discuss coming back to reality and dealing in what you refer to as “real life.” Can you go into more detail about this real life? and specifically what is this real life centered around?
My vote for best post goes to: Stifled voice of reason…in my experience all reasonable voices are stifled.
Many of you are missing a couple of crucial points. Maybe it’s because everybody is listening to the spin on the memos that were released, rather than reading them. So let’s lay a few things out on the table.
Firstly, waterboarding is torture, and numerous soldiers, intelligence personnel, and even our own government (with respect to Korea’s actions during the Korean war I believe) have stated that waterboarding is torture. So please drop the bs on this because the professionals who have performed this procedure have stated it to be torture.
Secondly, there is solid historical data to suggest that torture results in a ton of misinformation because the person being tortured will say anything to make the pain stop. That doesn’t mean that ALL the information is false, but there’s significant evidence that we wasted tons of resources (both human and monetary) chasing after false information procured by these techniques. That being said, why is it worthwhile to engage in acts of barbarism that don’t actually further our goals? To me, that’s what makes this especially disappointing.
The third crucial bit is that all of the memos I’ve read thus far paint a very strange picture with regards to the intent of the authors. They seemed to want to construct a case to avoid getting warrants, not just for hunting down terrorists, but also for applications to domestic criminal cases. The automatic justification for said warrants would be the protection of personnel in Iraq, for whom the information is absolutely necessary to get as soon as possible. btw, the bit I just explained is only the first two or three pages. A lot of the stuff earlier in the memos implies a strong desire to expand the American police state.
For the record, I’m NOT issuing some sort of conspiracy theory, just my interpretation of the portion of the memos that I’ve gotten through thus far (they’re very dense reading, crammed with “legalese”). There have also been indications that torture was leveraged in order to get information specifically to justify the war in Iraq. That is, there wasn’t solid evidence that there were WMD’s, so they needed to “find” intelligence to justify the war they had been planning since before 9/11.
That would mean that there’s a possibility that we tortured people in order to manufacture evidence to carry out a goal that was purely motivated by politics (or maybe just Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld wanting to “finish” things in Iraq *shrug*). I don’t know if this is truly the case, but the information currently available seems to point in that direction. If my above-stated premise is, in fact, correct, than the magnitude of the lies coming from the heads of our executive branch are to the tune of every death (whether Iraqi, American, or one our allies’), and to simply put on the blinders and ignore the complete co-opting of our government and military amounts to approval on our part.
In a sense, not chasing down the truth on these issues is equivalent to us telling the rest of the world that we’re blind nationalists who are completely comfortable with our government snubbing the rule of law if it suits them; and to us telling our government that we don’t care what they do in our name even if they might be engaging in the entirely wrong actions for the wrong reasons.
edit: former heads of our executive branch
Though I’ll readily admit that Obama’s similar policies. Being just a citizen, and nowhere near DC, I’ve already sent him emails and left messages explaining why I think he’s a failure as a president if he doesn’t address these issues instead of wussing out on anything remotely approaching a decision. Perhaps if the legal precedent were set to make the domestic wiretapping (and other Gestapo-esque tactics), then Obama would have no choice but to stop supporting them. Just a thought I figured I’d tack on to acknowledge the criticisms of Obama that I saw above this.
Well there you have it some of the “professionals” have called it torture, so therefore it is. You can find just as many to say its not torture. But, you should have saved this ridiculous point that we are going to look to common vernacular to determine if something is torture. Oh, um, some ex CIA guy on MSNBC said its torture. What matters here is what the fucking LAW says idiot. Why don’t you look at the statute which you probably have never looked at, and stop saying what people “said” is torture. That course of arguing is infantile. There is a statute and it requires the specific intent of the person performing the act, which I will save from laying out here because “specific intent” is probably to technical for your “already concluded” pea brained mind.
Our government has prosecuted soldiers for waterboarding our men. What other standard of proof do you need? I’m not a lawyer, but I understand that to be a legal precedent. As for specific intent (which I looked up, thanks to you), I’m not sure how it applies. Obviously the intent was to inflict large amounts of mental and/or physical discomfort in order to force these people to reveal information that they may or may not have. Where does specific intent tie into a justification or defense of this behavior?
Also, if you’re speaking with a somebody who hasn’t demonstrated wild irrationality, it won’t do you much good to start throwing insults. It makes legitimate discourse far more difficult, and makes you sound ignorant. If you possess the words to explain your thoughts without needing to insult mine, then please use them.
J,
Sorry for the personal invective. I am used to debating this with people who can’t have an actual discourse, and because I disagree with them they throw personal insults at me. All they can say is “Lock up Bush & Cheney.” Your last post made some good points. My only point is that when speaking of torture and wanting to imprison people you can’t talk about “torture” like you use it around the dinner table.
As for specific intent, as related to torture, take a look at this http://gulcfac.typepad.com/georgetown_university_law/2006/09/common_article_.html
Regards
Wow, that’s pretty damning actually. I guess, by their own definition then…somebody could torture one of the authors of these documents with the specific intent to have them learn the error of their ways….the excruciating pain and ensuing mental breakdown were just an unfortunate consequence, but weren’t really the main objective. Talk about amorality.
[…] know a lot of people are getting hell-bent over the current discussion on torture (I certainly have). But certain elements of this discussion have concerned me, mostly the idea that America has lost […]
I’m not ashamed to be an American. However, I’m not thrilled with the American Government. If you’re too closed minded to separate the two than you have no business spreading your hate and anger. This makes you no better the the administration you dislike so much. The Government stopped listening to it’s people quite some time ago. Anyone who puts their hope in a particular president or party is setting themselves up for severe disappointment. The majority of Americans do not agree with how recent events have been handled. The drastic changes we need now can happen only if the People rise from their complacency and tell our elected officials that they will lose office if their policies do not reflect our desires and beliefs. We need to stop giving those in government so much control. I’m done…
I have not read a single post here from a person that knows how the government works. You cant charge Bush with a crime because what he did was not within the power of his office. The power for him to conduct the illegal activity that he did was granted to him by congress when they allowed him the power to declare war. In times of war the power of the president is increased, and the people that gave him the power was a democrat control congress. You people say what you say because you feel that something is wrong, maybe if you read the constitution you would realize that the bureaucracy though complicated is quite beautiful and people like Obama who ignore it are the criminals.
I’m gonna respond to shocked
Right on man at least someone isn’t a blind hippie.
and to all the people who don’t like torturing
Lets see if a terrorist gives a fuck about human rights when he captures you eh?
I posted what I think about torture over on my blog, Ian’s Brain.
http://iansbrain.com/2009/04/27/chain-of-command-of-us-torture-program/
“Your tax dollars were used to pay for these programs. Your money has and is being spent to break the law and violate people’s basic human rights. Terrorist or doctor, in America we believe that we all have certain unalienable rights. Torture is never a reasonable course of action for a modern democracy. It is what dictators and tyrants resort to when they run out of ideas.”
The same kind of country that allowed a Vice President to steal billions, that’s right, billions of dollars and feed it to a company that actually had him on the payroll, on top of being a major shareholder. No bid contracts, so where is the criminal investigating for blatant up front corruption that the whole world is fully aware of but some how the deaf, dumb and blind US injustice system does absolutely nothing.
This rant is nonsensical and fallacious. Look at your very first sentence:
“What kind of fucking country do you live in where you have to debate whether torturing someone is a crime?”
The debate is whether or not torture is a crime, jackass, the debate is over whether or not waterboarding is torture (The Obama admin. says it is, and so is slapping someone’s face or putting non-biting bugs in their cells. Do you think those are torture? It sounds more like bush-league college hazing.)
You clearly think this is a crime, even though it is in the gray area as evidenced by the fact that nobody is in trouble. Another thing in the gray? The legality of warrant-less wiretaps (which Obama is still using, by the way).
And that’s only your first two mind numbingly obtuse sentences. Good lord.
Oh, and to answer your title question–you are.
You people seriously make me not want to live. Like I do not want to live life when people as fucking idiotic as you live also. Jesus Christ.
Try to equate these 2 videos
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/decapitation_video.htm
http://current.com/items/86509751_getting-waterboarded-uncut-version.htm
Not everything is as “Black and White” as you would like to pretend it is. America is not debating whether or not “Torture” is a crime – that is a universally accepted fact in the civilized world. The debate is about the definition of “Torture”. Obviously, if news reporters are subjecting themselves to water-boarding (the technique that started this debate)on national television then it’s safe to say that that particular technique is NOT torture. You don’t see any body volunteering to get beheaded or having an appendage removed for the sake of “understanding” do you? Of course not, because those acts are the real torture techniques. Making somebody “Feel” like they are drowning is not torture – it’s an interrogation. Further more, while you’re having this debate, do not discount the information that has been obtained from using this technique. Is it better to have one person think he was drowning (and yet still lives) or to have had another 9-11? Why do I even have to ask that question?
people have been executed for torture
anyone saying “in war you have to be tortured” needs to put the Xbox down and read a book. Start with your Bible you frauds.
To a few posters:
The point of torture (other than satiating repressed fetishes) is to elicit confessions or information via physical, mental, and psychological intimidation and aggression. Beheading a person is not torture, it’s murder. Waterboarding is simulating drowning (aka mimicking a near death experience) to elicit information. How does this not qualify as torture or as a crime?
-Alec
fuck you shit american
The country is called America I believe.
you are my new personal hero!
if your a woman lets get marrried..
if your a bloke i owe you a case of beer..
if your a doctor i need medical attention as my head is so sore from last night i cant remember where my head ache tablets are and some asshole (probably me) drank all my alcohol…
either way move to australia and ill get you you drunk an either take advantage of you or leave you somewhere naked (all in good fun)
fuck bush!
wake up obama!
Honestly,
Your rant makes me smile, not because it expresses how I feel, but because it is so pathetically ignorant and obnoxious. You think you’re from the tolerant party that can “elect a black man into office” and “stop terrorism through words” but you need to come to reality. We were attacked by terrorists because the Middle East has an unstable government. We’re not there to save the civilians. America could care less about the people of the Middle East. We’re there to ensure we don’t get fucking attacked again. Grow a pair and realize that your ranting is just a continuation of your sore-loser tendencies (honestly, it sucks you lost TWICE and couldn’t manage to change government on your own) so you should probably do something worth your time. Why do you think none of this has stopped since your messiah Obama has come into office? Probably because he has received intelligence (you know, stuff they can’t tell the public because pricks like you who hate America/want us all to die will use it to ‘free the middle east and liberate the terrorists!’) and he’s realized “shit, fuck the terrorists we’re in deeper than I ignorantly thought when I ran for office” and now we’re still in the situation. So shut the fuck up and leave the politics and intelligence to the elected officials who actually know what they talk about. If you want change, try to not lose so often ;)(or elect officials who actually know what their doing during a time of WAR)
Every first world country either uses these techniques or benefits from them. Get off your high horse.
I am not ashamed of my country, but am ashamed of the pansy ass people who live there. We are talking waterboarding! It’s not decapitating, mutilation, pulling out fucking finger nails. WTF America? Are we one big giant pussy waiting to get fucked by other countries? No one is going to take waterboading serious, period. They laugh at us already. IT’S WATERBOARDING for christ sakes! I guess if that doesn’t work we should just threaten them with a good ol’ “Time Out”. What the fuck ever America! You little cry baby bitches make this nation look weak. Shut up already.
Well spoken and I must agree. I hope “justice” prevails and the criminals pay for their crimes. Let the truth be known!
YAH WHAT A BUNCH OF PUSSIES! WATERBOARDING IS FOR ALL-STATE QUARTERBACKS AND PROM QUEENS! AND ANY OF YOU NERDS WHO GET IN THE WAY OF OUR MASTER PLAN TO GET A FULL RIDE TO DATE RAPE UNIVERSITY BETTER WATCH OUT!!!!!